All Forum Comments
Comment by stevejcoe posted on The beauty of the DA*60-250 at 23/05/2009 - 12:09
impotentspider wrote:
Before you all start screaming for my head I am NOT comparing Pentax to early Skoda What I am trying to do is point out that generally speaking people associate low price with cost cutting and sub standard products and will quite often pay more for less simply because they think the product will be better.
It took Skoda a long time to shake off the publics opinion of them, maybe its time Pentax said to hell with it and sold cameras at the same price as the competition with the attitude its as good as yours because it cost the same to make, hang on a mo, maybe thats exactly what their doing with the K7
The situation is not quite the same. Pentax used to sell more cameras than Canon and Nikon combined. They have always in my eyes provided value, better quality than Canon and much cheaper than Nikon. So when I purchased my first Pentax back in the early 80's I was not buying into some new upstart or cheap inferior product. Quote:
I agree that price is not a sustainable competitive adbvantage, but value certainly is. (95% of the features/quality for 75% of the price stills hold true. That last 5 % costs a lot to produce.
I take it you used to drive a Skoda or Lada thenI agree that price is not a sustainable competitive adbvantage, but value certainly is. (95% of the features/quality for 75% of the price stills hold true. That last 5 % costs a lot to produce.
Before you all start screaming for my head I am NOT comparing Pentax to early Skoda What I am trying to do is point out that generally speaking people associate low price with cost cutting and sub standard products and will quite often pay more for less simply because they think the product will be better.
It took Skoda a long time to shake off the publics opinion of them, maybe its time Pentax said to hell with it and sold cameras at the same price as the competition with the attitude its as good as yours because it cost the same to make, hang on a mo, maybe thats exactly what their doing with the K7
Pentax somehow lost their way and failed to adapt to the changing market and are now on the long road back.
Believe me there would be no one happier, if they could regain their former position and I sincerely hope that Hoya have the commitment to make it happen.
Steve
Comment by stevejcoe posted on Some simple arithmetic at 23/05/2009 - 11:47
Quote:
The proposition Pentax have so far made is one of value, but this has not been accepted by the market since their market share has apparently been sliding from already low levels in recent years. It has therefore provided no competitive advantage.
I believe the proposition worked well for its intended market, but that market has changed. DSLR's are now mass mass market consumer electronics and the characteristics of buyers has changed. The majority are 'non photographers' on a shopping fix and who need instant gratification. They are impressed by flash marketing and availability.The proposition Pentax have so far made is one of value, but this has not been accepted by the market since their market share has apparently been sliding from already low levels in recent years. It has therefore provided no competitive advantage.
I agree that price is not a sustainable competitive adbvantage, but value certainly is. (95% of the features/quality for 75% of the price stills hold true. That last 5 % costs a lot to produce.
I remember back in the 80's I was in the market for a decent vinly record playing turntable. I visited a specialist HiFi shop and listened to various trackes on a Rega Planar and a Linn Sondek. If I listened really closely I could pick up extra detail and vibrance at some points with the Linn, but it was 5 times the price of the Rega. It was no contest the Rega provided better value.
Steve
Comment by stevejcoe posted on Some simple arithmetic at 23/05/2009 - 10:53
Hardgravity wrote:
When Pentax and jessops split, more independent camera shops suddenly had stock and access to Pentax kit.
Were jessops tying up the supply?
Now if I want kit I have a better choice of local(ish) shops staffed by people who know what their stock does.
When jessops go bust what will the other brands do? Canon try and stop stores stocking rivals products, lets see how they fair when shops can't afford the massive capital outlay and, instead, continue selling rivals kit.
I have a feeling that Canon and Sony are providing stock on consignment together with displays and other promotional items. Lower margins for the retailor, but less risk. In effect they are renting shop floor space and the collect the rent through over the counter sales. There are almost certainly volume based bonuses too.When Pentax and jessops split, more independent camera shops suddenly had stock and access to Pentax kit.
Were jessops tying up the supply?
Now if I want kit I have a better choice of local(ish) shops staffed by people who know what their stock does.
When jessops go bust what will the other brands do? Canon try and stop stores stocking rivals products, lets see how they fair when shops can't afford the massive capital outlay and, instead, continue selling rivals kit.
Local shops are great, but how many can afford the outlay? More importantly how many people are prepared to pay the extra cost for the convenience. Members of this forum quite clearly fall into the specialist photographer segment and so may lean more towards the specialist shop, but I suspect most will try in the shop and then buy on the internet.
Except for the high end most DSLR's are mass market consumer electronics, sold to 'non photographers', to be disposed of when the next model comes out. We are not talking about the SLR's of old that were made for a relatively specialist enthusiast niche market. The customer has changed and the business model needs to also.
In the right hands it would be hard to choose between a photograph taken with a 1960's Spotmatic to that taken with a MZS. The same cannot be said for DSLR's . There have been tremendous improvements in the IQ of DSLR's over the last 5 years and who knows what will happen in the next?
Steve
Comment by stevejcoe posted on Anyone think Jessops are now kicking themselves? at 23/05/2009 - 10:03
In answer to your questions
1. yes it is the same lens. The RRP of the lens is around that price, but no one in their right mind would pay that.
2. The DA Mk11 and DAL are according to http://www.bdimitrov.de/kmp/ the same optical configuration. THE DA Mk 11 is slightly heavier as it has a metal lens mount . It also comes supplied with a lens hood.
Steve
1. yes it is the same lens. The RRP of the lens is around that price, but no one in their right mind would pay that.
2. The DA Mk11 and DAL are according to http://www.bdimitrov.de/kmp/ the same optical configuration. THE DA Mk 11 is slightly heavier as it has a metal lens mount . It also comes supplied with a lens hood.
Steve
Comment by stevejcoe posted on DA 18-55mm Mk ll at 23/05/2009 - 08:43
Who terminated who we may never know, but whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation the loss of high street presence is more of a loss to Pentax (bearing in mind the market that they are targeting), than losing Pentax is to Jessops.
For my sins I develop business strategy and if I had a national high street presence, I would be asking for stock on consignment and training for my staff everytime a new model came out. Back in the early 80's at their Leicester superstore they had Pentax, Nikon, Canon, Olympus experts ect. I remember waiting in line to speak to the Pentax guy, in those days Pentax were selling more cameras than anyone.
A major problem with Jessops is that they have far too many stores. If they streamlined their operation such that they had well stocked stores and well trained staff in the largest cities, they could do well.
The smaller satellite stores in this scenario would have little stock and concentrate on the lower end compacts and printing/processing services, but would also be able to pull equipment in to demo by appointment. They would also be able to arrange for pick up in store or home delivery. If they sorted out the logistics properly you could have your camera within 3 days of making the appointment to try it
A real differentiator would be if they were authorised by the manufacturer, after inspection, to replace from their stock any faulty item that was still within warranty. As an example of this I recently had a problem with a golf umbrella. The umbrella was 18 months old, but amazingly had a 2 year warranty. The umbrella was purchased over the internet, so I emailed the manufacturer. To paraphrase they said 'no problem, this is your nearest authorised dealer, take it there, if they feel that the item should be replaced they will replace it there for you' and they did. The manufacturer was Callaway and the store American Golf.
If the high street chains are to survive they need to go beyond selling boxes, smaller retailors know this, the corner shop open 24/7 is selling convenience and you buy time. SRS undoubtably know this and demonstrate it over and over again.
Steve
For my sins I develop business strategy and if I had a national high street presence, I would be asking for stock on consignment and training for my staff everytime a new model came out. Back in the early 80's at their Leicester superstore they had Pentax, Nikon, Canon, Olympus experts ect. I remember waiting in line to speak to the Pentax guy, in those days Pentax were selling more cameras than anyone.
A major problem with Jessops is that they have far too many stores. If they streamlined their operation such that they had well stocked stores and well trained staff in the largest cities, they could do well.
The smaller satellite stores in this scenario would have little stock and concentrate on the lower end compacts and printing/processing services, but would also be able to pull equipment in to demo by appointment. They would also be able to arrange for pick up in store or home delivery. If they sorted out the logistics properly you could have your camera within 3 days of making the appointment to try it
A real differentiator would be if they were authorised by the manufacturer, after inspection, to replace from their stock any faulty item that was still within warranty. As an example of this I recently had a problem with a golf umbrella. The umbrella was 18 months old, but amazingly had a 2 year warranty. The umbrella was purchased over the internet, so I emailed the manufacturer. To paraphrase they said 'no problem, this is your nearest authorised dealer, take it there, if they feel that the item should be replaced they will replace it there for you' and they did. The manufacturer was Callaway and the store American Golf.
If the high street chains are to survive they need to go beyond selling boxes, smaller retailors know this, the corner shop open 24/7 is selling convenience and you buy time. SRS undoubtably know this and demonstrate it over and over again.
Steve
Comment by stevejcoe posted on Anyone think Jessops are now kicking themselves? at 23/05/2009 - 08:07
I think we need to wait and see out the price settles in a few months time.
Pentax are undoubtably testing the water at the moment with the K7 and the much hyped rise in lens prices. Whilst there is no denying the effects of currency movements the prices quoted in some recent articles and posts I see as hard to justify. (You cannot claim the cost advantages of in body stabilisation on one hand and then change in lens stabilised prices on the other) Neither do I buy into the claim that we have had it good over the last few years. Prices in the UK have been consistently higher in the UK than NA for as long as I can remember. I would also bet that no US Pentax owner is treated in the same way as Tel was with his K20
For example in the early part of 2008 I made a couple of trips to the US. On my first trip I ordered mail order from B&H a FA 50 1.4. The price delivered was £95 (UK approx £150 at that time). During my second visit I ordered a FA 35 2.0 again from B&H. The price delivered £140 (UK approx £250 at that time). On both occasions I had no problems transferring my warranty.
I accept that the cost in the UK is always likely to be higher due to the cost of doing business over here. I remember clearly Chris @ SRS stating that some retailors in the US were selling at prices below his cost and that is the point that is so infuriating. Pentax may be no worse than Canon or Nikon in this respect, but to be quite honest I don't care about what others are doing. My question to Pentax is when will they stop fleecing the UK and other European markets to subsidise the US? They tried it in Canada and people voted with their wallets and simply bought from the US. Prices have since come down.
How many people are willing to spend over £1000 on a camera that they cannot touch and try out with a variety of lenses before they buy? Pentax need to remember that we are talking discretional spend consumer electronics here, that they hope buyers will upgrade again in 12-18 months.
The key competitive advantage that Pentax have always enjoyed and provided is value. The mix of features and IQ that might not have been at times as advanced as some rivals, but which provided 95% of the benefit for 75% of the price. It was what attracted me to the brand when I purchased my first slr nearly 30 years ago and if I am honest and money had not been an issue I would have probably purchased a Nikon. The point I am making here is that Pentax are in danger of losing this competitive advantage.
I will not be buying a K7 unless it comes down to current K20 prices and shows a marked improvement in AF, AE and noise control. The extra features are not just not something that need or am willing to pay for.
Alternatively if a K30? comes along with the aforementioned improvements and a K20 price tag then I will be in the queue.
There is another altenative, but I don't want to contemplate that yet.
Steve
Pentax are undoubtably testing the water at the moment with the K7 and the much hyped rise in lens prices. Whilst there is no denying the effects of currency movements the prices quoted in some recent articles and posts I see as hard to justify. (You cannot claim the cost advantages of in body stabilisation on one hand and then change in lens stabilised prices on the other) Neither do I buy into the claim that we have had it good over the last few years. Prices in the UK have been consistently higher in the UK than NA for as long as I can remember. I would also bet that no US Pentax owner is treated in the same way as Tel was with his K20
For example in the early part of 2008 I made a couple of trips to the US. On my first trip I ordered mail order from B&H a FA 50 1.4. The price delivered was £95 (UK approx £150 at that time). During my second visit I ordered a FA 35 2.0 again from B&H. The price delivered £140 (UK approx £250 at that time). On both occasions I had no problems transferring my warranty.
I accept that the cost in the UK is always likely to be higher due to the cost of doing business over here. I remember clearly Chris @ SRS stating that some retailors in the US were selling at prices below his cost and that is the point that is so infuriating. Pentax may be no worse than Canon or Nikon in this respect, but to be quite honest I don't care about what others are doing. My question to Pentax is when will they stop fleecing the UK and other European markets to subsidise the US? They tried it in Canada and people voted with their wallets and simply bought from the US. Prices have since come down.
Quote:
In the case of the K-7, it needs people to NOT rush out and buy it at that price, rather than pre-order at over-inflated rip-off prices. Then the price would have to come down.
I agree totally with Peter's comment. I have read a lot about Pentax targetting the mid range market, which makes the suggested RRP of the K7 laughable. In my opinion they have not got a snowball's chance of selling significant volumes with a 4 figure price tag. Couple with that with the fact that they have no significant high street presence, no disrespect to Chris and SRS but they are limited geographically (BTW Chris if you are thinking of opening a shop in Leicester I am open to offers :lol. In the case of the K-7, it needs people to NOT rush out and buy it at that price, rather than pre-order at over-inflated rip-off prices. Then the price would have to come down.
How many people are willing to spend over £1000 on a camera that they cannot touch and try out with a variety of lenses before they buy? Pentax need to remember that we are talking discretional spend consumer electronics here, that they hope buyers will upgrade again in 12-18 months.
The key competitive advantage that Pentax have always enjoyed and provided is value. The mix of features and IQ that might not have been at times as advanced as some rivals, but which provided 95% of the benefit for 75% of the price. It was what attracted me to the brand when I purchased my first slr nearly 30 years ago and if I am honest and money had not been an issue I would have probably purchased a Nikon. The point I am making here is that Pentax are in danger of losing this competitive advantage.
I will not be buying a K7 unless it comes down to current K20 prices and shows a marked improvement in AF, AE and noise control. The extra features are not just not something that need or am willing to pay for.
Alternatively if a K30? comes along with the aforementioned improvements and a K20 price tag then I will be in the queue.
There is another altenative, but I don't want to contemplate that yet.
Steve
Comment by stevejcoe posted on Some simple arithmetic at 22/05/2009 - 13:03
If the improvements in; AF, exposure metering and noise control are as good as claimed in the K7 and if those improvements are put into a K20 upgrade (K30 with pentaprism?) selling for the price of the K20 then I will upgrade.
The video features and higher frame rate of the K7 are not important to me and are not something that I would be prepared to pay for.
The video features and higher frame rate of the K7 are not important to me and are not something that I would be prepared to pay for.
Comment by stevejcoe posted on Who has what? at 21/05/2009 - 09:47
Mannesty wrote:
Interesting thought Steve but I'm not sure that focussing can be achieved by moving the image plane, can it?
I really don't know for sure, but my sense is that it should be possible for the macro application that you describe as we are only talking about a small amount of movement. I would have thought that finer control is possible by moving the sensor than the lens. Interesting thought Steve but I'm not sure that focussing can be achieved by moving the image plane, can it?
On a slighter different but related tack, am I the only one who feels that the K7's new horizon levelling feature is a clever get round for the incorrected fitted sensor problem, that several on this forum have in the the past reported. It seems to me that the feature allows more latitude in assembly and so potentially reduces costs. If this is intentional I take my hat off to the person who came up with the idea.
Steve
Comment by stevejcoe posted on In-Camera focus bracketing - how difficult would it be? at 21/05/2009 - 09:34
Steve