Grumpiness


Technoblurb

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 13:30
I find this an interesting but slightly disturbing post, as the least among equals in this group I am wondering if this is the wrong forum for me, being a total photographic beginner who is also severely dyslexic. I find, not having been baptised fully in the language a photographic criticism hard at times to pass more constructive comments than I really like this shot and I also feel that currently my pictures are at least poor bordering on mediocre giving me little right to be critical of others. I have the feeling from the comments above that I am expected to remain as a mute member only allowed to ask questions and to leave the remaining conversations to the site illuminate. However I do agree with the comments regarding text speak and abbreviations this excludes members who are not in the know.

fatspider

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 13:37
When I first joined this forum (a few years ago) there was very little conflict, everyone seemed to get on like a house on fire. True we had the occasional dispute and managed to upset the odd member here and there (I think even I did that once) But never was there anything like the arguments and disputes we have had over the last year.

This leaves me with one conclusion, either certain oldies are getting grumpier or some newbies are becoming agressive now they have found their feet.

I dont think George has changed much, so decide for yourselves.

Can we get back to photography now please.
My Names Alan, and I'm a lensaholic.
My PPG link
My Flckr link

johnriley

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 13:37
Don't worry Technoblurb, you're expressing yourself just fine and no-one is trying to exclude you.

We welcome all levels here.

This thread is not about criticising anyone for lack of knowledge.
Best regards, John

Pwynnej

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 13:45
Technoblurb wrote:
I find this an interesting but slightly disturbing post, as the least among equals in this group I am wondering if this is the wrong forum for me, being a total photographic beginner who is also severely dyslexic. I find, not having been baptised fully in the language a photographic criticism hard at times to pass more constructive comments than I really like this shot and I also feel that currently my pictures are at least poor bordering on mediocre giving me little right to be critical of others. I have the feeling from the comments above that I am expected to remain as a mute member only allowed to ask questions and to leave the remaining conversations to the site illuminate. However I do agree with the comments regarding text speak and abbreviations this excludes members who are not in the know.

I don't think George's original post is meant to say that any member, new or old, beginner or experienced has any more rights to post on this forum than any other. I guess it takes some courage to say that you are dyslexic, you can be excused for that. We have members of many nationalities, for whom English is their 2nd/3rd or 4th languages...
What many people find difficult to excuse is lazy use of English.

When it comes to C&C in the gallery I think you have a good reason to comment on a photograph, even if it's only to say that you think it's a good photo. The worry is that some photos however good or bad, will only get good comments, because praise is due or the commenter is afraid to be too critical.... I, personally, am too afraid to put mine in the gallery as my photographic technique sucks

Keep Posting and contributing
K20D, Z-1p, Z-1
F50 1.7,FAs 24,31,35,50 1.4,77,85,135. DA*16-50. DA*60-250. DA*300 D-FA 100
SA 12-24.
Metz 45 CL-4, AF500FTZ. AF540FGZ.
Some Mamiya and some Nikon

MattMatic

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 13:50
I'm suffering from a very bad "signal-to-noise ratio" at the moment

Alas, I don't have the time, health, nor energy to read each post and it is a great pity that these days people seem happy with playing "forum tennis" rather than discussing photographic and post-processing issues.

George: I've always enjoyed your comments, and appreciate the experience you have with Pentax stuff. (though recognise that some cannot take it - such is the nature of the Internet with no real ability to convey nuances ).

Technoblurb: all levels are welcome here, and I (as well as many others here) will do all we can to assist with suggestions, and ideas for using Pentax gear

It's just a great pity that threads seem to flare off so quickly these days I honestly can't keep up with it all...

...I'm off to recover now.
Matt
http://www.mattmatic.co.uk
(For gallery, tips and links)

Mannesty

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 14:09
Cloudhunter wrote:
No its not meant to impress. Its meant to let you know its not just 1 or 2 people trying to get someone banned. its lots of members unhappy with how he talks to people like they are s**t he has just stepped in.

Perhaps these are the 8 (9 if you include yourself) members to whom George, and others, refer.

Cloudhunter, you have succeeded once again in dragging this forum down to a low level. I think there must be something missing in your life, I hope you find something soon to fill the void. This forum is definitely not it.


Good luck with your own forum.
Peter E Smith

My flickr Photostream
Last Edited by Mannesty on 22/07/2009 - 14:21

ericp

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 14:11
Malo1961 wrote:
ericp wrote:
A lot of people also agree but nobody is doing anything about it.

If you think someone has posted a topic that is nonsense then comment to that effect. If everyone does it then the forum will correct itself. It may be a bit heavy handed but I think some sort of action needs to be taken if you feel that strongly about it.


And what do you think would happen, if we did ? Right up till now I only read the opinion of the ones agreeing with the OP. I am still waiting on those who must feel addressed by George, to come forward

Let's assume for a minute someone posts a picture for critique. All the basics are wrong, but as a newbie he wants to learn and improve himself.
And there comes Mr.Nitwit who's only agenda seem to be in raising his already useless posting count. "Great picture" he says or different words who imply the same pampering.....We have all seen it happen, right???

And then.....one of the Oldie's over here, preferably with some appointed authority intervenes and comments on what is going on.

The forum would explode, don't you think??

Martin.

Things probably would get out of hand but then normality would be reinstated eventually and the die hard supporters of the forum would still be here.

I think there needs to be a balance. I comment on pictures because even though what I have to say is not important but I wish to express the fact I think it a good capture for example. I am no paid critique or experienced professional so I can't always offer the expert opinion but I don't think that should imply I have no voice. I agree my comment may not add value to other forum members but the original poster will no doubt appreciate it.

As for asking pointless and/or sills questions, everyone and especially new members will do that. The question may be silly or have been asked a million times. It is important to make either known quickly so it can die quietly. Ignoring it does not help and only makes the forum seem like a cold and unfriendly place which it is far from. I think the more established members and moderators can take that lead.

wasleys wrote:
With reference to ericp's comment about lack of capitals not being so bad I have to say I disagree. Capitals starting sentences help readers identify the break and so make reading easier.

I thought that's what punctuation, namely full stops, were for

Either or, it is a mute point and I don't really mind and can do both. Let us not attach the emoticons though!

We are all big boys and girls so the forum and its soul will survive.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/_cypher/

Pentax K10D, 50, 18-55, 28-70, 100, Sigma 10-20, Tamron 18-250, 28-75
Last Edited by ericp on 22/07/2009 - 14:12

BODYHEAT

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 14:15
BODYHEAT wrote:
I start threads or contribute to them because I hope to learn from others' contributions or trigger a debate (not deliberately contentious) where there is a subject in which I would like to weigh up dichotomous opinions.

There are some threads on here that were started in that spirit by others but degenerate into nonsense that doesn't advance anyone's photographic knowledge. I have just removed the notifications from one or two such threads so I don't keep getting reminder emails to go and check out the latest drivel. In other words, the quality and content of some of the contributions deteriorates to such an extent that it makes me want to opt out.

There is a place for light banter and I am guilty of it too, but on the whole I would like to dip into this forum to advance my knowledge and understanding of all things photographic and Pentaxian.

Where would we be without George?

Once more I am opting out and removing the notification so I don't get reminder emails bringing me back to yet another thread that has degenerated into a farce. It's been useful being here the last month or so, but right now I have no appetite to stick around, addictive though it is
FILM - Pentax: LX, K2 - 24/2.8, 40/2.8, 50/1.4, 120/2.8, 80-200/4.5, 28-105mm 2.8 macro, AF 280T

DIGITAL - Nikon : D300 - 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED AF-S VR DX

Unlocker

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 14:24
I for one find George to be one of my guilty pleasures!

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Mannesty

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 14:26
ericp wrote:


Quote:
wasleys wrote:
With reference to ericp's comment about lack of capitals not being so bad I have to say I disagree. Capitals starting sentences help readers identify the break and so make reading easier

I thought that's what punctuation, namely full stops, were for


Not quite. A sentence is started by a capital letter, a full stop ends it. One or two spaces, depending on your school of learning, separates sentences within a paragraph.
Peter E Smith

My flickr Photostream

ericp

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 14:32
Mannesty wrote:
ericp wrote:


Quote:
wasleys wrote:
With reference to ericp's comment about lack of capitals not being so bad I have to say I disagree. Capitals starting sentences help readers identify the break and so make reading easier

I thought that's what punctuation, namely full stops, were for


Not quite. A sentence is started by a capital letter, a full stop ends it. One or two spaces, depending on your school of learning, separates sentences within a paragraph.

I think you misunderstood. wasleys mentioned Capitals helped readers identify breaks so make easier reading. You are talking about what defines a sentence. Possibly lost in translation.

Also, what do you do when you encounter a proper noun in the middle of a sentence wasleys?

It was/is all tongue in cheek by the way.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/_cypher/

Pentax K10D, 50, 18-55, 28-70, 100, Sigma 10-20, Tamron 18-250, 28-75

Don

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 14:58
O.K.

I think I got the meaning of what is happening here...( I spend much less time here than I used to.)

I've been called out once or twice for being argumentitive... even had a thread or two deleted..

I have to recognize there are limits, and standards for conduct... and accept that...

I have dyslexia... I also have a tendancy to "wander off" topics....

But in spite of it all I find I'm accepted here and treated with respect. That level of respect, and acceptance is the end result of attempts by some to maintain those limits and standards...

I have seen people who come here as totally inexperienced noobs that ask questions, learn and advance thier skills to a professional level in short order (one who despite a very abrassive personality went from not getting the most basic concepts to going into business DESPITE having ticked off every single member of this forum).

People are tolerent here.
People are generous here.
People are forgiving here.

I'm able to make valid contributions, despite my sometimes limited comunication skills. I'm much better with a camera than I have ever been with words. But I'm also much better with words than I ever used to be, due to having been welcomed and tolerated, but I had to make an effort!

I think some people need to see the value in what George is asking for, and make some effort.

The rewards will be worth it...

Matt... prayers for your health!
George.. yes you are grumpy.. don't change...
Some of you.. grow up..
others DON'T FEED THE TROLLS..
everyone else: enjoy this forum, in spite of it's quirks, it is the best one out there, especially if you like Photography, and even more so if you got Pentax Gear!

Fired many shots. Didn't kill anything.
Last Edited by Don on 22/07/2009 - 15:02

parker06

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 15:32
As a relatively new member to this forum,i am impressed with the amount of friendly people on here. I am as guilty as most (probably more) of simple questions on the forum, and i still have more,sorry!
I thought that by coming to a Pentax forum,being in a photographic minority,i would learn from like-minded people. I understand that the same old questions become boring, so why not start a "newbie section".
But then this starts a "them and us" scenario.I have asked members for help,now i hope in the future i can help someone new (not just yet though !).
What makes an "unusually splendid picture" to me, may not move George in the same way. Surely this does not mean my opinion is less justified does it ?
In response to the BBC, they need policing more than we do !
I introduced a friend to this forum,as a friendly ,helpful place for Pentax people. Please dont prove me wrong.
I am now even more worried about posting my photos here,in case they do not meet standards i cannot reach.

chirpy

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 15:38
Unlocker wrote:
I for one find George to be one of my guilty pleasures!

I'm with you there I don't have a problem with George at all. I enjoy his self-proclaimed pedantry. He may be brusque, but he offers his opinion whether it's controversial or not.

I'm not surprised that some take offence at his words at times, but as John keeps pointing out, we all have to accept that people will have differing (and often uncomfortable) opinions and we should accept them for what they are and move on. That is something that I have had to learn over time, especially online, though I also find it difficult at times.
Jonathan

Macro & Wildlife Photography
Last Edited by chirpy on 22/07/2009 - 15:38

PygmyTwittle

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 15:48
I first joined this forum over three years ago. Like many new members, I was looking for information and received some very helpful replies from other members who kindly took the time to answer.

My posts are few and tend to be limited to exchanges of information. Mostly, I find forums difficult and slow for communicating anything else - when you can't see someone's face or hear the tone of their voice, it is so easy to misunderstand. You can sit there and believe you have understood someone's intentions but be way off the mark. I guess that's why we have emoticons, but I don't think they really cover the myriad of subtleties of the human face! Come to think if it, I've been way off the mark when communicating face to face too!

Well, I thought I might risk one of the discussions for a change, so...

Hello everyone!


Firstly, I think that if people make an effort to write clearly, that is enough, even if they are not as successful as some might hope. If a post is obviously lazy and you don't like it, ignore it. If everyone agrees, the thread will soon die. If a post is difficult to understand but it is obvious the poster is struggling to make themselves understood, ask for clarification - this happens in face to face conversation all the time, even if just by looking puzzled. We shouldn't be too worried about being "guilty by association" or worried that potential new members will be put off by the lack of a certain standard - in fact, quite the contrary, they may be put off through fear of being able to express themselves clearly enough.

I consider myself a fairly well educated and rounded person; I have a Masters degree, I have had some interesting jobs (I spent ten years developing software for race car telemetry, the system which is currently used by all F1 teams), I play guitar, bass and drums, I'm a mountain biker and qualified ski intructor and of course, I love photography and Pentax gear. I have friends from many countries, from many backgrounds and in many walks of life. Their level of education or ability to write clearly is certainly not a factor in making friendships and like most sensible people, I realise that there are many enviable qualities which they possess and which I will never possess. We are all different, no one better.

The world is made up of all sorts of people - I don't expect to be friends with all of them and likewise I don't expect to be friends with everyone on a forum. If I don't like a post or it is not interesting to me, I'll ignore it. Threads which everyone finds boring will die of their own accord, I don't think we want to be telling people not to post unless they think we'll find it interesting. Again, this could quite easily put new members off.

It seems that critique of pictures is quite an issue. I know what George means when he talks about what appears to be the sycophantic praise which some pictures receive. It's one of the reasons I don't bother posting pictures (other than the fact that I am already my own worst critic and I often recognise my mistakes the moment I see the developed image!). When I see some of the praise, I can only assume that the poster offering the comment doesn't have the talent/skill/experience to be more discerning, but that in itself is no reason for them not to make the post. The best response is for those who are capable of constructive criticism to post more useful feedback. And it would be worth baring in mind by those receiving the criticism and those observing it, that the intention is to be helpful and also that it is perfectly possible to give a valid criticism without being an expert practitioner oneself. So, wait for some pictures from me, then feel free to dig in!

Oh, and how does making more posts turn you in to a Pentax Pro Master? Maybe this 'feature' should be removed. Or maybe it should work the other way round, since the more you post, the less time you must be spending behind the camera. I've often thought, new inexperienced employees should start as managing director, then as they get more experience and skills, progress to a more important job.

So, hello again everyone,

Derek.
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