Grumpiness


johnriley

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 10:09
I am hopeful that there has been a "sea change" for the better, but of course the tone of the forum will depend very much on who is here. Every member is the forum, there's no escaping that, so one viewpoint won't necessarily exist.

The one expressed in this thread is very positive though, and I thank you all for that.

As for editing, sadly it became obvious that a handful of people were causing a rumpus and some of them were then going back and changing what they had written, so things no longer looked as though anything had caused a problem. This is a serious breach and had to be stopped. It will also be useful in the Classified Ads section, just in case of any description problems.

We have 30 minutes to edit, so it's a case of think before and as you type and check afterwards!
Best regards, John

SteveF

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 10:23
George

I abhor "me too" posts but I'm going to make an exception in this case and agree whole-heartedly with your comments.

Although I only recently registered on this forum, I lurked for a long time beforehand, so feel I know it and some of the long standing members pretty well.

I have only a small number of posts to my name because I try to adhere to the principles you outlined. I am also a fellow pedant and find the proliferation of poor grammar and spelling trying to say the least.

I hope this thread encourages an improvement in standards.

Father Ted

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 10:41
George Lazarette wrote:

Occasionally, it is (in my view) permissable to praise unconditionally. When an unusually splendid picture is posted, then a simple "Wow", or words to that effect, is acceptable. In the main, however, few pictures deserve uncritical adoration, and it does no service to the photographer to pretend otherwise.


Whatever is posted here, text or image, is fair game for constructive criticism (which is much more useful than false praise).



3. Now, I admit that I am something of a pedant, but bad English distresses me. It is not that I expect everybody to write like Shakespeare, but I do take exception to the slovenly and discourteous manner in which some people express themselves. I know that there are those have trouble with writing properly, but I am equally aware that some who have difficulty (often great difficulty) take pains to do it as well as they can, whilst others think that any old slapdash rubbish will do.



I agree with much of what you say and have picked out some of the points.

I post on here for the C&C. I know my shots aren't up to most of the standards on here, but false praise or even no comment doesn't help. I hope I speak for everyone on here ( I was going to say all newbies, but I do think this should apply to all), in saying that I only post on here for the more experienced photographers to tell me what I could do better. The occasional ego polish is nice, but doesn't assist me much.

As for the standard of English. I am a budding pedant and one thing which drives me crazy on all fora which I'm on is deliberately poor English. By which I mean text type speak,etc. I can make allownaces for people whos first languange isn't English, or those on another forum I use who have a very poor standard of English. But to deliberately write poorly really winds me up...maybe I'm becoming a fully fledged pedant.
Getting there! Thanks to you guys

Pentax K10d, *istDL, Kit lens ( 18-55mm ), 50mm f1.7 lens, Tamron 70-300mm lens, Prinzflex 70-162 manual lens, Various old flashes.
Last Edited by Father Ted on 22/07/2009 - 10:49

ericp

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 10:46
I have nothing important to say but here it is anyway

I like this forum because of the community feel it has and the real fact that topics like this spring up. Members are not afraid to voice their opinions and it would be a shame if that was lost.

George, if you don't like what is happening to the forum please do something about it. Your post is excellent but it is just words at the moment. A lot of people also agree but nobody is doing anything about it.

If you think someone has posted a topic that is nonsense then comment to that effect. If everyone does it then the forum will correct itself. It may be a bit heavy handed but I think some sort of action needs to be taken if you feel that strongly about it.

Also, I am one whom others could accuse of poor capitalisation. I tend to not bother capitalising the first letter of the sentence but I don't think it is so bad. I also don't bother to capitalise the letter i when I am referring to myself. That is just laziness on my part, guilty as charged.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/_cypher/

Pentax K10D, 50, 18-55, 28-70, 100, Sigma 10-20, Tamron 18-250, 28-75

Father Ted

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 10:50
I had to do it!!
Spelling mistake in the paragraph about poor English
Getting there! Thanks to you guys

Pentax K10d, *istDL, Kit lens ( 18-55mm ), 50mm f1.7 lens, Tamron 70-300mm lens, Prinzflex 70-162 manual lens, Various old flashes.

BODYHEAT

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 10:55
I start threads or contribute to them because I hope to learn from others' contributions or trigger a debate (not deliberately contentious) where there is a subject in which I would like to weigh up dichotomous opinions.

There are some threads on here that were started in that spirit by others but degenerate into nonsense that doesn't advance anyone's photographic knowledge. I have just removed the notifications from one or two such threads so I don't keep getting reminder emails to go and check out the latest drivel. In other words, the quality and content of some of the contributions deteriorates to such an extent that it makes me want to opt out.

There is a place for light banter and I am guilty of it too, but on the whole I would like to dip into this forum to advance my knowledge and understanding of all things photographic and Pentaxian.

Where would we be without George?
FILM - Pentax: LX, K2 - 24/2.8, 40/2.8, 50/1.4, 120/2.8, 80-200/4.5, 28-105mm 2.8 macro, AF 280T

DIGITAL - Nikon : D300 - 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED AF-S VR DX

chirpy

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 10:58
Malo1961 wrote:
Wise words George, and well spoken. But....as a witness of a certain decline on this forum (After the forum revamp)

Which some of us did predict at the time

However, I've noticed over the years a steady but marked decline in the quality of online forums. People are too quick to be aggressive and abusive and the lack of respect for each other is sometimes astounding.
Jonathan

Macro & Wildlife Photography

Pentaxophile

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 10:59
Father Ted wrote:
I had to do it!!
Spelling mistake in the paragraph about poor English

You missed an apostrophe in that sentence too! [Edit: Actually I got that wrong; should be whose not who's! SHows what happens when you start being pedantic...]

But get you with your correct latin pluralisation:

Quote:
...drives me crazy on all fora

Very impressed. But I think re text speak etc, this is just 'the norm' on forums (oops!) such as this. Not a sign of slipping standards. Language is an evolving thing... IMHO!
[link=https://500px.com/will_brealey/[/link]
Last Edited by Pentaxophile on 22/07/2009 - 11:07

sanderscapes

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 11:07
I think the forum on the most part write their posts or opinions quite well but have seen a few posts lately which contain text that i can't understand.Such as the grouped letters WTB / IMHO(i know these now)etc.

Maybe it's the world i live in i don't come accross these abbreviations in my world.On the whole i agree with George's comments and find it hard to understand some of the abbreviated posts or posts with a lack of information or vagueness.

On the good side this forum can be very enlightening and very informative and is my first place for pentax information.

Mannesty

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 11:20
sanderscapes wrote:
I think the forum on the most part write their posts or opinions quite well but have seen a few posts lately which contain text that i can't understand.Such as the grouped letters WTB / IMHO(i know these now)etc.

Maybe it's the world i live in i don't come accross these abbreviations in my world.On the whole i agree with George's comments and find it hard to understand some of the abbreviated posts or posts with a lack of information or vagueness.

On the good side this forum can be very enlightening and very informative and is my first place for pentax information.

Do you come across spaces after the full stop at the end of a sentence, or a capitalised letter 'I' when referring to the first person singular, in your world?
Peter E Smith

My flickr Photostream
Last Edited by Mannesty on 22/07/2009 - 11:21

sanderscapes

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 11:26
Thanks for embarassing me further Peter

thoramay

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 11:28
Oh dear!! I am courting trouble here, but here goes. George! I admire your eloquence and I would wish to attain your standards but neither are within me. What would you wish me to do? Leave this forum? When someone adds a comment to a photo, it may not be OUR opinion but it is THEIRS. Surely it is within us to hold to our opinion and at the same time respect theirs. Expecting this Forum to meet our expectations can easily become the reason that people leave. There is one comment that I fully support and that is the use of banal and unrelated humour that follows a perfectly serious question. This often takes the thread away from the point of the question. Humour translated easily in the spoken word but is much more difficult when put on paper to the extent that it can be misunderstood and develope into conflict. It HAS happened. In expecting this Forum to meet the expectations of a wide and varied group of Pentax users with a similar wide and varied ability, am I wrong? If so then I am sorely dissapointed.

johnriley

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 11:38
You're not wrong thoramay, but then I don't think your expectation need be incompatible with the general feeling that has been expressed above.

I would say always try to be clear to the best of our ability, show proper respect for contrary points of view and don't over-react are good starting points.
Best regards, John

Malo1961

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 11:59
ericp wrote:
A lot of people also agree but nobody is doing anything about it.

If you think someone has posted a topic that is nonsense then comment to that effect. If everyone does it then the forum will correct itself. It may be a bit heavy handed but I think some sort of action needs to be taken if you feel that strongly about it.


And what do you think would happen, if we did ? Right up till now I only read the opinion of the ones agreeing with the OP. I am still waiting on those who must feel addressed by George, to come forward

Let's assume for a minute someone posts a picture for critique. All the basics are wrong, but as a newbie he wants to learn and improve himself.
And there comes Mr.Nitwit who's only agenda seem to be in raising his already useless posting count. "Great picture" he says or different words who imply the same pampering.....We have all seen it happen, right???

And then.....one of the Oldie's over here, preferably with some appointed authority intervenes and comments on what is going on.

The forum would explode, don't you think??

Martin.
Best regards,

Martin.


Curious about my photography?? Just Follow the Light.

Cloudhunter

Link Posted 22/07/2009 - 12:06
George Lazarette wrote:
I have in recent months been accused of being grumpy. Longer serving members of the forum will (I hope) attest that in days gone by such a charge (whilst possibly not lacking all foundation) would not have stuck for long.

So why the change? I asked myself that question, and here are the answers:

First, as a general observation, it is a matter of fact that over the past year or so there has been a large increase in the number of people claiming membership of the forum, and at the same time (in my opinion) there has been a decline in the quality of contributions TO the forum.

Specifically, I would mention three things that illustrate the decline I refer to:

1. The first Director-General of the BBC, Lord Reith, defined the duties of the institution as being: "To inform, To educate, and To entertain". It seems to me that these serve equally well as the acceptable reasons for posting to an Internet forum. If a post is neither informative (nor seeking information), nor educational, nor amusing, then what earthly use is it? Occasionally, it is (in my view) permissable to praise unconditionally. When an unusually splendid picture is posted, then a simple "Wow", or words to that effect, is acceptable. In the main, however, few pictures deserve uncritical adoration, and it does no service to the photographer to pretend otherwise.

Currently, there are a great number of posts on this forum which don't meet any of these criteria, and, indeed, some are so mind-numbingly banal as to sap the very spirit of the reader. Gushing responses to quite mediocre pictures have almost become the norm. Seriously, chaps, if you have nothing worthwhile to say, don't say it.


2. Approximately two hundred years ago, the Archduke Rudolph issued a decree that Beethoven be excused observance of the usual rules of court etiquette. I am unaware of any prior or subsequent such indulgence granted to any artist (or, indeed, to anybody). Nonetheless, in the past year or so, a number of lesser talents have claimed a similar privilege on this forum; at least, in so far as criticism of their work is concerned. During the recent hyaena-fest I was accused (falsely) of critising somebody's pictures, as though that were in itself a crime, rather than one of the main points of the forum.

Whatever is posted here, text or image, is fair game for constructive criticism (which is much more useful than false praise).

3. Now, I admit that I am something of a pedant, but bad English distresses me. It is not that I expect everybody to write like Shakespeare, but I do take exception to the slovenly and discourteous manner in which some people express themselves. I know that there are those have trouble with writing properly, but I am equally aware that some who have difficulty (often great difficulty) take pains to do it as well as they can, whilst others think that any old slapdash rubbish will do.

I don't for a moment consider that people who find it difficult to write well are stupid, but I do think that those who don't take care are pretty deficient in the old grey matter. Language is what separates Homo Sapiens from the beasts of the field, and those who don't realise that, and can't be bothered to communicate their thoughts as well as they can, (or don't see the point in doing so) are little better than Dolly the Sheep.

That's it, folks. In closing, I would just mention that some erstwhile regulars have abandoned this forum, while some former regulars seem to be drifting away. Let's stop the rot, and get back to a situation where people contribute helpful, thoughtful, posts that reflect credit on themselves and which are both useful and a pleasure to read.

G

I totally agree about posts with no meaning. I would check your own posts over the last month George. Your as guilty as the rest of us for that.

When you say lesser talents, do you mean those who have less quality pics than you have taken? Such as scottthehat, a member who you openly slated for his pictures?

Is this forum your own George? DO you speak for everybody? Not all of us claim to be perfect and if i want to wrtie lkie tihs tehn i wlil do it, tahts my chioce!!!

I have never in all my life met someone with such a high opinion of himself. You openly slate somebody elses pictures to try and justify your won. Why pick on someobody who takes possibly the best pics on this forum?? Thats just stupidity in my opinion.

Im expecting a ban anyway now as i was warned to leave off replying to you or i face a ban. I dont care to be honest as i have my own photography forum being uploaded this afternoon that i have been working on the last month or so (a few members already know). I think the decline of this forum is the total over moderation, siding with twirps like george and trying to gag people too much.
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