FF sensor rumors
Posted 01/06/2015 - 20:37 - Helpful Comment
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I am not holding my breath! I put off buying a GX-20 5/6 years ago because a senior Samsung exec was reported to have dropped some firm hints on FF.
I suspect the long delay may be due to problems getting Shake Reduction to work well on a double size sensor? Sony claim to have done it now.
However; Pentax continue making FF lenses, past new models have been introduced at about the £1,000 mark and reduced over the next four to six months. Why is the K-3ii such a (comparitively) low price? Who knows?
As to sensor size, surely any FF sensor has to have enough MP to allow a reasonable resolution with lenses designed for cropped sensors, assuming any FF camera will adjust to take APS-C images? Something of a given if Ricoh want people with a collection of DA lenses to shell out on an FF camera body?
I suspect the long delay may be due to problems getting Shake Reduction to work well on a double size sensor? Sony claim to have done it now.
However; Pentax continue making FF lenses, past new models have been introduced at about the £1,000 mark and reduced over the next four to six months. Why is the K-3ii such a (comparitively) low price? Who knows?
As to sensor size, surely any FF sensor has to have enough MP to allow a reasonable resolution with lenses designed for cropped sensors, assuming any FF camera will adjust to take APS-C images? Something of a given if Ricoh want people with a collection of DA lenses to shell out on an FF camera body?
Posted 01/06/2015 - 22:58 - Helpful Comment
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As Percy as pointed out the photosites on the FF sensor will be the same as the very efficient K5 , 16mp APS-c sensor ; 4.8 microns wide
However regarding the FF sensor in "cropped mode"; We don't yet know how a lens is mounted on the FF (ie. dimension from the rear element / lens mount to the sensor) so for simplicity if we consider the reduction in sensor coverage when the 1.5 x crop factor is applied (as a reciprocal) we should be able to calculate the number of photosites utilised in "Cropped mode" on the FF
Thus applying the reciprocal of the crop factor (1 x 3/2) the image circle should cover 66.66% of the FF sensor which is 24mp of 36mp.
ASSUMPTION;
It is assumed for the purpose of the comparison below that the dimension from the rear lens element to the FF sensor is the same as on any other K Mount DSLR
Comparison of 36mp FF in "croped mode" to K3 APS-c , 24 mp sensor;
The K3 is configured with photosites that are 3.9microns wide so theoretically / arithmetically the cropped image on a 36mp sensor should be 24 mp x 4.8 micron photosites whereas the K3 is configured with 24 mp x 3.9 micron photosites.
If that turns out to be the case then the FF in crop sensor mode should outperform the K3
So we will have to wait and see wether the lens mount / FF sensor is dimentionally re-configured or crop mode is achieved by simply processing (cropping) the image in the camera, which could be a little easier I suspect .
A very interesting muse to say the least.
However regarding the FF sensor in "cropped mode"; We don't yet know how a lens is mounted on the FF (ie. dimension from the rear element / lens mount to the sensor) so for simplicity if we consider the reduction in sensor coverage when the 1.5 x crop factor is applied (as a reciprocal) we should be able to calculate the number of photosites utilised in "Cropped mode" on the FF
Thus applying the reciprocal of the crop factor (1 x 3/2) the image circle should cover 66.66% of the FF sensor which is 24mp of 36mp.
ASSUMPTION;
It is assumed for the purpose of the comparison below that the dimension from the rear lens element to the FF sensor is the same as on any other K Mount DSLR
Comparison of 36mp FF in "croped mode" to K3 APS-c , 24 mp sensor;
The K3 is configured with photosites that are 3.9microns wide so theoretically / arithmetically the cropped image on a 36mp sensor should be 24 mp x 4.8 micron photosites whereas the K3 is configured with 24 mp x 3.9 micron photosites.
If that turns out to be the case then the FF in crop sensor mode should outperform the K3
So we will have to wait and see wether the lens mount / FF sensor is dimentionally re-configured or crop mode is achieved by simply processing (cropping) the image in the camera, which could be a little easier I suspect .
A very interesting muse to say the least.
percy wrote:
Daronl wrote:
However I am also very interested in the performance of DA* lenses in the Cropped sensor mode (CSM) where arithmetically we can expect 24.7% bigger photo-sites on the full frame sensor configuration.
If it's a 36MP full frame sensor, then crop mode will be roughly equivalent to the 16MP K-5 and the photo-sites will be pretty much the same size as those on the K-5.However I am also very interested in the performance of DA* lenses in the Cropped sensor mode (CSM) where arithmetically we can expect 24.7% bigger photo-sites on the full frame sensor configuration.
Daronl
Posted 01/06/2015 - 23:28
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Ricoh (Pentax) have a problem. Either they cater for the mass market (higher MP count) or the wishes of a few (very few) existing Pentax users who want better high-iso performance. As this is the first Pentax FF it's unlikely there will be several versions to cater for all needs. A 24MP FF won't sell hugely in a market full of 24MP APS-C bodies, especially with the 50MP Canon hanging about (it will become the must have body for the wealthy but clueless brigade festooned with 24-70/2.8 & 70-200/2.8 L lenses).
As a slide film user, I have no problem with the dynamic range of my K-5, as an ISO 3200 mono film user, I have no need for anything over ISO 6400 (only a handful of my K-5 shots have been over ISO 400). Having said the above, I just want a body that makes my 43mm a 43mm (I have never used this lens on my K-5 as it doesn't make sense).
John.
As a slide film user, I have no problem with the dynamic range of my K-5, as an ISO 3200 mono film user, I have no need for anything over ISO 6400 (only a handful of my K-5 shots have been over ISO 400). Having said the above, I just want a body that makes my 43mm a 43mm (I have never used this lens on my K-5 as it doesn't make sense).
John.
Posted 01/06/2015 - 23:45
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John, I would be happy to achieve the same goal on a 16mp "FF K5IIs" if you know what I mean.
Regards
See video below;
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/07/30/lets-cut-the-crop-zack-arias-on-...
Regards
See video below;
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/07/30/lets-cut-the-crop-zack-arias-on-...
Daronl
Posted 02/06/2015 - 02:16
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neil90 wrote:
I suspect the long delay may be due to problems getting Shake Reduction to work well on a double size sensor? Sony claim to have done it now.
No claiming at all, it's a product you can buy right now. AND it works in video mode too...I suspect the long delay may be due to problems getting Shake Reduction to work well on a double size sensor? Sony claim to have done it now.
neil90 wrote:
However; Pentax continue making FF lenses, past new models have been introduced at about the £1,000 mark and reduced over the next four to six months. Why is the K-3ii such a (comparitively) low price? Who knows?
The K-3ii is very very similar to the K-3. It's a rework of the same body, so no floppy screen/built in wifi etc. It's this price in my opinion because it's essentially a different variant of the K-3, like and a and a b model in different fit out configuration. Differences appear to be a better gyro, and a firmware development that allows for the high res picture mode. If it was Fuji then this would rolling out to everyone with a capable sensor shift sensor...
However; Pentax continue making FF lenses, past new models have been introduced at about the £1,000 mark and reduced over the next four to six months. Why is the K-3ii such a (comparitively) low price? Who knows?
Posted 02/06/2015 - 08:25
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Daronl wrote:
...........................................
So we will have to wait and see wether the lens mount / FF sensor is dimentionally re-configured or crop mode is achieved by simply processing (cropping) the image in the camera, which could be a little easier I suspect .
A very interesting muse to say the least.
........................................................
Why do you have to wait? Nikon have already done it The crop is ...........................................
So we will have to wait and see wether the lens mount / FF sensor is dimentionally re-configured or crop mode is achieved by simply processing (cropping) the image in the camera, which could be a little easier I suspect .
A very interesting muse to say the least.
........................................................
DX format (24x16): 4800 x 3200 = 15,360 pixels
They also have an interesting 5:4 crop which might be too complex for Pentax users
5:4 (30x24): 6144 x 4912 = 30,179 pixels
Frame coverage drops from 100% to Approx. 97% horizontal and 97% vertical for APS-C.
--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber
Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff
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Algi
Posted 02/06/2015 - 09:39
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Algernon wrote:
Yup!Daronl wrote:
I am looking forward very much to the FF which I am sure will be a significant forward development that will not be overshadowed by the comparative competition , and for sure I will get one.
However I am also very interested in the performance of DA* lenses in the Cropped sensor mode (CSM) where arithmetically we can expect 24.7% bigger photo-sites on the full frame sensor configuration.
So apart from the obvious improvements from FF technology with dedicated or compatible FF Lenses, in CSM, projecting the the cropped image circle on to the much larger photosites on the FF sensor should give a better cropped image performance than the same cropped sensor lens on a K3 sensor, which is already pretty good.
So in Cropped sensor mode (CSM) we should get improved noise levels, better High ISO performance and improved dynamic range on existing lenses
I'm not sure what your on about here? The cropped sensor mode will use about 15.3MP of the 36/37MP sensor. So the results should be similar to a K-5I am looking forward very much to the FF which I am sure will be a significant forward development that will not be overshadowed by the comparative competition , and for sure I will get one.
However I am also very interested in the performance of DA* lenses in the Cropped sensor mode (CSM) where arithmetically we can expect 24.7% bigger photo-sites on the full frame sensor configuration.
So apart from the obvious improvements from FF technology with dedicated or compatible FF Lenses, in CSM, projecting the the cropped image circle on to the much larger photosites on the FF sensor should give a better cropped image performance than the same cropped sensor lens on a K3 sensor, which is already pretty good.
So in Cropped sensor mode (CSM) we should get improved noise levels, better High ISO performance and improved dynamic range on existing lenses
Quote:
and not even as good as a K-3
--
they'll be better than a K-3. The K-3 squeezes 24MP in the APS-C area
and not even as good as a K-3
--
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Posted 02/06/2015 - 10:39
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When it finally comes out, I wonder how many pages the 'FF Cropped Mode vs K3 Comparative Image Analysis ' forum thread will run to ....?
And 3 of the pages will be argument over whether you need to own both a FF and a K3 in order to be able to see the differences !!
And 3 of the pages will be argument over whether you need to own both a FF and a K3 in order to be able to see the differences !!
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
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Posted 02/06/2015 - 11:31
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Cropping The FF sensor based on the 4.89 micron photosites should result in a 15.495 mp resolution so the APS-c size image should be more or less like the K5 as Smeggy says but that assumes it will be done as a simple crop.
However it might be done another way too, as I said yesterday , but we won't know until it arrives ; which is why i refererred to it as a muse yesterday, because that is all it is at the moment ; an interesting muse.
However it might be done another way too, as I said yesterday , but we won't know until it arrives ; which is why i refererred to it as a muse yesterday, because that is all it is at the moment ; an interesting muse.
Smeggypants wrote:
Algernon wrote:
Yup!Daronl wrote:
I am looking forward very much to the FF which I am sure will be a significant forward development that will not be overshadowed by the comparative competition , and for sure I will get one.
However I am also very interested in the performance of DA* lenses in the Cropped sensor mode (CSM) where arithmetically we can expect 24.7% bigger photo-sites on the full frame sensor configuration.
So apart from the obvious improvements from FF technology with dedicated or compatible FF Lenses, in CSM, projecting the the cropped image circle on to the much larger photosites on the FF sensor should give a better cropped image performance than the same cropped sensor lens on a K3 sensor, which is already pretty good.
So in Cropped sensor mode (CSM) we should get improved noise levels, better High ISO performance and improved dynamic range on existing lenses
I'm not sure what your on about here? The cropped sensor mode will use about 15.3MP of the 36/37MP sensor. So the results should be similar to a K-5I am looking forward very much to the FF which I am sure will be a significant forward development that will not be overshadowed by the comparative competition , and for sure I will get one.
However I am also very interested in the performance of DA* lenses in the Cropped sensor mode (CSM) where arithmetically we can expect 24.7% bigger photo-sites on the full frame sensor configuration.
So apart from the obvious improvements from FF technology with dedicated or compatible FF Lenses, in CSM, projecting the the cropped image circle on to the much larger photosites on the FF sensor should give a better cropped image performance than the same cropped sensor lens on a K3 sensor, which is already pretty good.
So in Cropped sensor mode (CSM) we should get improved noise levels, better High ISO performance and improved dynamic range on existing lenses
Quote:
and not even as good as a K-3
--
they'll be better than a K-3. The K-3 squeezes 24MP in the APS-C areaand not even as good as a K-3
--
Daronl
Posted 02/06/2015 - 12:33
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The size of the FF sensor is fixed. It's not elastic. A 23.7mm x 15.7mm crop out of that is also fixed. It's as simple as cutting a 23.7mm x 15.7mm hole in a 36x24mm film frame.
There's only one answer and only one way to do it
There might be a slight adjustment in the APS-C size to fit into the nearest suitable boundaries. It should be very close to the Nikon size (24x16): 4800 x 3200 = 15,360 pixels
--
There's only one answer and only one way to do it
There might be a slight adjustment in the APS-C size to fit into the nearest suitable boundaries. It should be very close to the Nikon size (24x16): 4800 x 3200 = 15,360 pixels
--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber
Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff
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Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff
Algi
Posted 02/06/2015 - 12:42
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McGregNi wrote:
When it finally comes out, I wonder how many pages the 'FF Cropped Mode vs K3 Comparative Image Analysis ' forum thread will run to ....?
And 3 of the pages will be argument over whether you need to own both a FF and a K3 in order to be able to see the differences !!
Can't find a like button, but agree. When it finally comes out, I wonder how many pages the 'FF Cropped Mode vs K3 Comparative Image Analysis ' forum thread will run to ....?
And 3 of the pages will be argument over whether you need to own both a FF and a K3 in order to be able to see the differences !!
I'm real keen on a big leap in IQ.
I don't own either a k-5iis or a k-3 but there does look to be a difference in high ISO ability but that's not hugely significant from the examples I've seen.
I'm hoping for something that's clearly strikingly obvious to all. To date the only thing that's made me say that is the 12MP Sony mirrorless. The mirrorless part of it is largely irrelevant in that statement also.
Basically though, whilst I want that epic wow factor, I think we're talking a FF high res K-3 basically. Maybe with a high res mode sensor shift trick. I don't think anyone is doing that in FF land yet?
If it astrotraces then it may be a hit with the astro crowd, and that would be very very interesting to see their reaction to it.
Posted 02/06/2015 - 15:11
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McGregNi wrote:
When it finally comes out, I wonder how many pages the 'FF Cropped Mode vs K3 Comparative Image Analysis ' forum thread will run to ....?
Seems rather optimistic to suggest it will only be one thread!
When it finally comes out, I wonder how many pages the 'FF Cropped Mode vs K3 Comparative Image Analysis ' forum thread will run to ....?
Mike
.
Pentax:K5ii, K7, K100D, DA18-55, DA10-17, DA55-300, DA50-200, F100-300, F50, DA35 AL, 4* M50, 2* M135, Helicoid extension, Tak 300 f4 (& 6 film bodies)
3rd Party: Bigmos (Sigma 150-500mm OS HSM),2* 28mm, 100mm macro, 28-200 zoom, 35-80 zoom, 80-200 zoom, 80-210 zoom, 300mm M42, 600 mirror, 1000-4000 scope, 50mm M42, enlarger lenses, Sony & micro 4/3 cameras with various PK mounts, Zenit E...
Far to many tele-converters, adapters, project parts & extension tubes etc.
.[size=11:].Flickr• WPF• Panoramio
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Pentax:K5ii, K7, K100D, DA18-55, DA10-17, DA55-300, DA50-200, F100-300, F50, DA35 AL, 4* M50, 2* M135, Helicoid extension, Tak 300 f4 (& 6 film bodies)
3rd Party: Bigmos (Sigma 150-500mm OS HSM),2* 28mm, 100mm macro, 28-200 zoom, 35-80 zoom, 80-200 zoom, 80-210 zoom, 300mm M42, 600 mirror, 1000-4000 scope, 50mm M42, enlarger lenses, Sony & micro 4/3 cameras with various PK mounts, Zenit E...
Far to many tele-converters, adapters, project parts & extension tubes etc.
.[size=11:].Flickr• WPF• Panoramio
Posted 02/06/2015 - 15:48
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Daronl wrote:
We don't yet know how a lens is mounted on the FF (ie. dimension from the rear element / lens mount to the sensor) so for simplicity if we consider the reduction in sensor coverage when the 1.5 x crop factor is applied (as a reciprocal) we should be able to calculate the number of photosites utilised in "Cropped mode" on the FF
Thus applying the reciprocal of the crop factor (1 x 3/2) the image circle should cover 66.66% of the FF sensor which is 24mp of 36mp.
No.We don't yet know how a lens is mounted on the FF (ie. dimension from the rear element / lens mount to the sensor) so for simplicity if we consider the reduction in sensor coverage when the 1.5 x crop factor is applied (as a reciprocal) we should be able to calculate the number of photosites utilised in "Cropped mode" on the FF
Thus applying the reciprocal of the crop factor (1 x 3/2) the image circle should cover 66.66% of the FF sensor which is 24mp of 36mp.
2/3 of the length but (2/3) squared, i.e. 4/9 of the area.
Megapixels are analogous to AREA, not LENGTH.
So 36MP on full frame will be about 7348 x 4899 = 35,997,852 pixels (36MP).
Taking 2/3 of those lengths and multiplying gives 4899 x 3266 = 16,000,134 pixels (16MP)
Therefore 36MP FF has photosites/pixels of the same size as 16MP on APS-C.
Hope that clarifies?
Peter
Pentax K5
Pentax DA 18-55 Mk1, 50-200 (Samsung), 16-45, 55-300 Mk1, 35 f/2.4
Pentax MZ6 + FA28-90, FA50 f/1.4, M 50 f/1.7
Tamron 80-210mm & 28mm
Pentax K5
Pentax DA 18-55 Mk1, 50-200 (Samsung), 16-45, 55-300 Mk1, 35 f/2.4
Pentax MZ6 + FA28-90, FA50 f/1.4, M 50 f/1.7
Tamron 80-210mm & 28mm
Posted 02/06/2015 - 16:09
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It's been confirmed by a reliable source that the FF will have a NEW sensor and be less than 46MP..... So probably between 36 and 46MP. It may well be released later than originally stated.
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Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff
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However I am also very interested in the performance of DA* lenses in the Cropped sensor mode (CSM) where arithmetically we can expect 24.7% bigger photo-sites on the full frame sensor configuration.