Comments Weekly Comp #152 - Duotone

I shall bow out at this point and leave it to JR to respond to this one

Stefan there is no reason to change the rules which have worked for years. The idea is to avoid people resubmitting images having seen what others have done. Regaring teh first entrant being at a disadvantage: This has never been a problem before and simply don't enter early if you aren't happy that your shot is suitable or your best, get guidance before submitting.

In this particular case I understand why you allowed resubmissions but I think most regular entrants would have preferred it had you not allowed this.

I could be wrong on all counts.

Mike

Thank you Mike.
I'm glad you understand why I did it with this competition.

It was never a problem we could see the entries but you already said it yourself the point I was trying to make.

I would agree with this one but not with the comps here because the ones entering late have the same advantage so what's there unfair about?

Therefore to make it fair we should either hide the entries or allow resubmitting.

But to be honest I think it's all just for fun and we should just go on like we always did and be a bit more open with when things aren't going as planned and we shouldn't spoil the fun if someone didn't understand the competition, after all we have many members here which first language isn't English.

JR - where are you :

Hyram, it was you who sparked this idea with your comment.

I would really like an explanation and what you mean with feedback and why you think a new entry is disappointing?

ps. I might be a bit blunt with what I said in this comment but I'm writing this with friendly intentions.

Putting words into Hyram's mouth I think he means it's unheard of for the judge to contact an entrant telling them their entry isn't suitable and allowing them to resubmit.

It's usual the judge responds only very early on to questions rather than is proactive and contacts entrants. That's just the way the competition has always run and has always been successful with that format.

The rule as far as I know has always been if in doubt the entrant seeks clarification as early as people did in this case but no resubmits.

Mike

Personally, I think the guidelines in the competition were too ambiguous, which helped lead to the re-submission of entries and the general confusion surrounding what was allowed or not. The competition was entitled "Duotone", but the winning photograph was not a duotone at all. It had two colours, but that is not what duotone means in photographic terms.

I have no problem with who won or who didn't, I don't think my entry was anywhere near the standard of some of the other entries (and it was in fact split-toned).

I feel that the people who understood the term duotone in it's correct sense were possibly put at a disadvantage. You seemed a bit confused as to the definition of a duotone yourself, Stefan, and perhaps should have clarified this before setting it as a subject for the competition, or called it something else?

That said, the competition produced some great images, which is what it is all about.

Rgds,
Jon.

I think the problem in this competition stemmed from the fact some people did not fully understand the meaning of duo tone. This isn't generally a problem when we have a less technically specific subject. But what the hell. The point of these competitions is to have fun and stretch our minds a bit looking for pictures of subjects that we might not normally take. And as Aliengrove said this competition encouraged some good entries.
David

Quite right, David.

I think that we should revert to the previous unwritten rule that we have no changing of entries and no intervention by the judge during the week of the competition. Otherwise the goalposts, to use a topical cliche, will constantly move.

Surely there is also an advantage to entering early if you have an original idea. Getting in there first will discourage others from the same subject matter, the trick is getting it good enough in the first instance.

Thank you Mike - that sums up my thoughts.

We read what the judge has said (when the competition is set), take a view on what he/she means, possibly ask for clarification early on (if required) and then take a view as to whether to stick literally to what the judge has indicated or to try and push the boundaries.

We then enjoy looking at the other entries as they come, sometimes realise that others have had a much better idea but wait for judgement day.

If we have opted to push the boundaries, we may get lucky and the judge accepts the interpretation or we may be told that our entry does not meet the judge's criteria and we move on to the next challenge.

Aliengroove, My understanding off a duotone is to put it very simple a B&W with a colour or tone applied to it.
But then comes the question is it allowed to apply the tone selectively if so then the winner is indeed a duotone or tritone.

If you read my description I mentioned black and white but I never thought that some could interpreted my words differently but I did indeed said the use of two or more colours so who am I to decide how those two colours are applied?

In the end I'm happy with the enteries, some where very creative since it lead to some very nice photos.

As for putting others at an advantage, the numbers 2 and 3 where classic duotones and so are all the highly recommended except one. I understand you might feel that way though.

Yes indeed but I thought the term duo-tone was very well know inside photography, I mean when someone say sepia a lot know what it is but I guess the term duotone is still very unknown

Thank you Hyram, I had read it very differently then what you meant.

I'm absolutely certain that re-submitting is unfair to the other entrants. The motive for replacing an entry doesn't matter - once the die is cast that should be it. You read the brief for the competition, you give it your best shot and that's it. The judge only gets involved after the deadline.

This has worked well for the past 150+ competitions and worked well without having to change this basic premise. It's obvious from the feedback that deviating from that causes problems, so let's just keep it fair and square for all.

As the winner of this rather controversial competition I thought I ought just add my thoughts to this thread.

A duotone was a new concept to me and it was not really clear to me what was needed. So I took my usual approach and watched the comment thread, the early entries and did a little research. Although I was a little confused it became clear that the brief for the competition was open to some interpretation and having been inspired by an earlier submission I thought that I could submit an entry that was pushing the boundaries a little. I have seen in the past that others have succeeded this way if they manage to hit a soft spot in the judge.

I did not really expect to win. Aluther's entry, that was my inspiration, went out of its way to point out it was not a proper duotone and I also added a similar comment to my entry.

I too was a little concerned that some entrants were being encouraged to re-submit their entries but I set this aside as being a quirk resulting in the issues with the definition of this particular competition and really to me it became a note on how difficult it can be to create unambiguous subject definitions and how not to manage them.

I also have say something in defence of Anvh. We expect quite a lot from our judges. I'm sure he has done what he considered to be best. I beleive he was worried that some people had misunderstood his requirements and tried so sort it out. While we didn't necessarily agree with his methods I believe he was not trying to upset us but doing his best to keep the competition open for the majority. We all interpret things differently and this is extended with the huge diverse scope of people we encourage here. I'm sure one of the beneficial consequences is that we will tighten up the rules a little.

On the posting early front I have copied below the comment I wrote in the competition thread:

{
I love the way these competitions evolve over their duration and I think hiding the entries would take a lot away from the fun we have here.

When you compete here you are always faced with the dilemma do you you post early or late. Its part of the competition.

If you think you have a really good idea and want the credibility of getting it in before anyone else you might want to post early and take the risk that it could seed someone else's later entry, remember the Design Icon fortnightly competition? If you think you have a really unique interpretation, that no one else will think of, then you might choose to post late. I think its all part of the fun and quite a few people have proved that you can win these competitions posting both early and late. Posting up an entry early might just inspire someone who otherwise might not have participated.

Certainly from my direction, particularly as a beginner to this craft, when there is any doubt about what is needed it can be worth waiting to see which way the competition is going. On top of that if we hid the entries then what would we talk about in the discussion thread?

I love these competitions and the people here. I learn something new every time and I'm always impressed by the quality of ideas and implementation displayed here. I don't think we need to change it.
}

These competitions are primarily for fun and I think provide a terrific demonstration of skills, interchange and support for newcomers. They certainly have had a tremendous impact on the enjoyment I get out of this hobby.

I hope we can go on to the next competition. I certainly intent that it will operate within the usual rules.

Glyn

(Who apologises for this rather long post)