Why use Av instead of P?


McGregNi

Link Posted 29/09/2013 - 10:00
Yes, its very interesting to raise all these options. I hadn't thought about changingthe e-dial functioning like gwings method for EC. I must admit, I tend to prefer dedicated and fixed controls for each function, and that's also probably why I like to switch specifically in to each mode using the dial.

Personally I see the Hyper-P way of working (in mental process terms) as more suited to a shoot with general and varied subjects, where you want to make fairly minor tweaks to either aperture of shutter speed to 'correct' for what the program has dished up, depending on the needs of each individual shot.

I see the fixed dial Av / Tv / Tav / Sv approach as more suited to extended shoots with images of the same nature (such as landscape outings using a tripod, or portrait sessions, or sports perhaps) where I like to clearly identify a single 'priority' for the images. In landscape on a tripod this is invariable aperture control (the shutter speed will not matter generally), and I believe this 'mindset' to be a more positive and commited (to the 'priority')way of working that will generate stronger images.

Lets not forget that Hyper P will not work for our old manual lenses (those without auto mode for exposure control), where M is the only option with stop down metering.
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J2R

Link Posted 29/09/2013 - 19:56
Crossed-up wrote:
I think J2R was actually enquiring about the method of selecting Av mode, rather than the photographic merits of Av, Program or any other mode as methods for the camera to determine exposure i.e. is Av mode selected via the mode dial any different from Av mode selected via the thumbwheel when the mode dial is set to P, which is technically Hyper Program mode? The reality being that you are not shooting in Program mode at all but Av or Tv depending on which wheel you rotate.

You are quite right, this is what I was enquiring about. I just wondered why anybody would actually set the mode dial to Av or Tv, given that both are available off the P setting depending on which wheel you turn. But 'as a statement of intent' seems the best answer, really, if there are no actual technical differences.

McGregNi

Link Posted 29/09/2013 - 20:01
Its not about how the camera can be controlled .... its about how a human interacts with and controls the camera in specific photographic situations.
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MrSpigot

Link Posted 30/09/2013 - 16:55
Quote:
You are quite right, this is what I was enquiring about. I just wondered why anybody would actually set the mode dial to Av or Tv, given that both are available off the P setting depending on which wheel you turn. But 'as a statement of intent' seems the best answer, really, if there are no actual technical differences.

There is a technical difference which matters to me - in Av I can set one dial to change aperture and one to change ISO. P allows exposure compensation on the dial, but not ISO. Anyway, using P mode with aperture and shutter on the dials seems odd to me as they essentially control the same thing. If I used P I'd go for exposure compensation and program shift on the dials to get more control.

johnriley

Link Posted 30/09/2013 - 16:57
You will quite likely find there are some menu options that are not available in P, whereas they will be in Av.
Best regards, John

Mongoose

Link Posted 30/09/2013 - 17:23
I can't speak for the K-5 John, but I'm 90% sure that's not true on my K10D.

On green mode you loose menu options, but P is considered a "creative" mode and lets you mess the shot up in any way you like.

I believe the cameras which have scene modes on the dial also lock out certain menu options in scene modes and auto-picture, but not P, Av, Tv or M (or Sv and TAv if present).

I have my Av mode set to aperture on the rear dial and ISO on the front, and my camera stays in Av mode 99.9% of the time. This may be a leftover from my first introduction to SLR photography on an MV.
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McGregNi

Link Posted 30/09/2013 - 20:17
Its true that I feel a lot of the difference is to with the 'process mindset'. But there are some practical issues as well. For example, in P mode, when the camera is switched off and on again ,then you end up back with the defaults - your dial inputs are not remembered.

In Av / Tv modes after switching on again, your setting will be remembered. I know this is important during an extended landscape shoot, when I might be quickly moving around, maybe with the camera still on the tripod, and in Remote Control mode I don't want to disturb anything whilst moving, or fire the shutter by mistake - so the best approach is to turn off the camer for the moving. There are 'memory' items in the menus that allow you to specify exactly what settings will be retained (eg ISO, drive mode, Exposure & flash compensation for example).

There's no point in this scenario of having the aperture jump back to f4.0 when I'm just going to crank it on to f11 straight away.

But, yes, the importance of this stuff to me is about the mental approach and 'priority' of a particular shooting situation, and the most efficient way to focus on that.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Last Edited by McGregNi on 30/09/2013 - 20:19

Mongoose

Link Posted 01/10/2013 - 12:29
I once had an interesting conversation with a friend over what the best mode to use for fast action sports was.

He argued Tv was the way forward because you want to select your shutter speed to freeze the action.

I argued for Av, because my sport of choice tends to take place indoors and I simply wanted the fastest shutter speed available while maintaining correct exposure.

In our own way and for our own purposes we were both right. What I'm trying to say is that which mode you choose is of secondary importance to knowing what they all do and what they offer so that you can make an informed choice.

I think what we're getting from this thread is an interesting (to me anyway) insight into different aspects of the various modes which are important to different members.
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petrochemist

Link Posted 01/10/2013 - 16:53
I have my front wheel set top exposure compensation in Av & Tv modes, as there are 2 controls thats not practical in P mode set up as you describe (Aperture on one & speed on the other).

It's also possible to leave Tv set to 1/250, Av set to wide open, and use the mode dial to quickly switch between 3 different configurations (Tv, Av, & P).
Mike
.
Pentax:K5ii, K7, K100D, DA18-55, DA10-17, DA55-300, DA50-200, F100-300, F50, DA35 AL, 4* M50, 2* M135, Helicoid extension, Tak 300 f4 (& 6 film bodies)
3rd Party: Bigmos (Sigma 150-500mm OS HSM),2* 28mm, 100mm macro, 28-200 zoom, 35-80 zoom, 80-200 zoom, 80-210 zoom, 300mm M42, 600 mirror, 1000-4000 scope, 50mm M42, enlarger lenses, Sony & micro 4/3 cameras with various PK mounts, Zenit E...
Far to many tele-converters, adapters, project parts & extension tubes etc.

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petrochemist

Link Posted 01/10/2013 - 17:00
Mongoose wrote:
I once had an interesting conversation with a friend over what the best mode to use for fast action sports was.

He argued Tv was the way forward because you want to select your shutter speed to freeze the action.

I argued for Av, because my sport of choice tends to take place indoors and I simply wanted the fastest shutter speed available while maintaining correct exposure.

In our own way and for our own purposes we were both right. What I'm trying to say is that which mode you choose is of secondary importance to knowing what they all do and what they offer so that you can make an informed choice.

I think what we're getting from this thread is an interesting (to me anyway) insight into different aspects of the various modes which are important to different members.

I'd prefer your approach if I was after the fastest possible speed (being aware that it might go outside the range avbailable to the shutter)

IMO Tv is ideal for things like propellor aircraft & panning, where you want motion blur, so you definitly don't want the fastest possible.
To go from ~1/50s to ~1/2000s can simply be a matter of switching from Tv to Av instead of endless turning of the control wheel.
Mike
.
Pentax:K5ii, K7, K100D, DA18-55, DA10-17, DA55-300, DA50-200, F100-300, F50, DA35 AL, 4* M50, 2* M135, Helicoid extension, Tak 300 f4 (& 6 film bodies)
3rd Party: Bigmos (Sigma 150-500mm OS HSM),2* 28mm, 100mm macro, 28-200 zoom, 35-80 zoom, 80-200 zoom, 80-210 zoom, 300mm M42, 600 mirror, 1000-4000 scope, 50mm M42, enlarger lenses, Sony & micro 4/3 cameras with various PK mounts, Zenit E...
Far to many tele-converters, adapters, project parts & extension tubes etc.

.[size=11:].Flickr WPF Panoramio

johnha

Link Posted 01/10/2013 - 23:43
I've read the comments on this thread with interest, for me (as others have commented) the logical choice would be 'P' (really Hyper-P). The ability to start at the program settings (or rather the selected program line) and shift up/down from this point seems really useful.

However (at least on the K-5), the real gem is 'M' (or Hyper-M), which can be all exposure modes with a couple of button presses. Manual retains your settings, but press the green button and the selected program line is then set (giving you 'P') - but the dials then allow you to change either freely. Pressing the exposure lock will then lock the selected combination and either dial will then shift them both depending on the dial (Av, Tv or Hyper-P however you want to call it).

I remember my Z-1 allowed you to select whether the Tv/Av options in Hyper-P stopped shifting if you ran off either end (i.e. hit max/min aperture or shutter speed) or allowed them to continue. This might not be an issue with the mode dial set to Av or Tv. The Z-1 had separate exposure modes for each option - Hyper-M (or M with the lens not on A), P, Tv, Av, Hyper-P, bulb etc.

Though I feel the choice of metering mode and procedure is more important than the exposure mode in most cases.
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Last Edited by johnha on 01/10/2013 - 23:49

CMW

Link Posted 02/10/2013 - 08:48
johnha wrote:
However (at least on the K-5), the real gem is 'M' (or Hyper-M), which can be all exposure modes with a couple of button presses.

Spot on. It all comes down to individual preference of course, but manual has the greatest versatility -- I particularly like (by using manual) to avoid faffing around with a separate exposure compensation dial. About the only thing it won't readily do for me is set ISO. BTW am I alone in wishing ISO would revert to an operator-set default ISO when the camera's turned off?
Regards, Christopher

ChristopherWheelerPhotography

Mongoose

Link Posted 02/10/2013 - 08:54
I didn't know about exposure lock in Hyper-M, I'll have to try that and see if my K10 does the same.
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MrB

Link Posted 02/10/2013 - 18:41
CMW wrote:

BTW am I alone in wishing ISO would revert to an operator-set default ISO when the camera's turned off?

Couldn't you do that in User Mode?

Philip

ronniemac

Link Posted 02/10/2013 - 22:17
This has been most useful; a timely reminder of the intelligence of the K-5 and of these engineering chaps at Pentax.

I developed a habit of using the Av setting most of the time. On Sunday I set it on P and am delighted with the instant control over aperture and shutter, not to mention ease of use. I have just tried out Manual and green button (which I often use with M lenses) but this time also with AE-L - what an excellent combination! Previously I had always use the +/- button and dialed in over or under exposure (which for me meant looking at the top of camera and rear screen - now I can keep looking through that lovely viewfinder, thumbing the relevant buttons and dials, seeing the effect immediately) It is not so much that these program modes and buttons add new functionality, more a case of smooth and intuitive operation - this always being a strong point with Pentax.

I know you must be thinking, doh, isn't it all obvious? and I feel like a bit of a dork for not previously exploring the power of the K-5. Anyway, thanks to you all for your helpful contributions on this topic - it's been a good read!
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