What microphone for video?

I got exactly the opposite feedback on the Zoom from the guy we were going to be buying an audio booth from. The internal mics are more than acceptable for "prosumer" use and the front / rear surround works really nicely. Yes, it does record each set of mics as a pair of stereo tracks.
The other point is it's a small, portable setup at a €150 price point which you can also use as a decent Skype mic (scaring people as it's stereo!) and as a standalone audacity mic if that floats your boat. It's cheap, cheerful and excellent value. The K6 / M66 combo *starts* at double the price if I read right.

Noise Removal in Audacity is a world of pain. You need a clean section of background noise and even then, if you increase it too much, you end up chopping the end off of the spoken word. Mic it properly and life will be much easier....remember, you'll also want to compress (try the additional "compress dynamics" plugin for audacity) to reduce the difference between loud and quiet passages and this is also a black art. I've also taken to reducing my audio output significantly for FCP as it seems to want -6dB as a "max", rather than 0. Which is weird but I can live with.

Bret

I don't know what to say to those who recommend the Zoom units except they are dead wrong. I can only explain this phenomenon as due to the fact that video people often know little about audio. That's been my experience anyway. It pains me that people are getting such bad advice.

Simply hold the Olympus unit and compare the build to the Zoom H2. There is no comparison. Of course it is still a relatively inexpensive consumer unit, but unless you want to pay ten times the cost you are not going to get better. The question is: How cheap do you want to get? I recommend saving money only if huge sacrifices in sound quality and reliability do not result. Otherwise it's like recommending a point and shoot to someone who really needs an SLR, simply because the p'n's is cheaper.

First, list your requirements, then get the cheapest unit that meets these requirements. But don't compromise on requirements or you will be continuously frustrated.

Look up the specs of these units as actually tested, not as promoted by their marketing departments. The most important of these is the quality of the microphone pre-amp. All are more or less the same in terms of distortion. (Well, not really, but the differences are not as great.) However, the Olympus/Sony units are way out in front in terms of low noise. This won't matter if you are recording live rock music. But it will matter if you ever want to record ambiance, room tone or even dialogue in less than perfect situations.

To be specific, the Samson Zoom H2 has an EIN of -99dBu(A) which is abysmally high. The Zoom H4 is much better at -114dBu. The Olympus LS-10/11/5 are at -122dBu. For comparison, something high-end like the Sound Devices 702 is -130dBu, but that is a huge and heavy shoulder unit -- unfair to compare with hand-held recorders.

The difference between the Olympus and even the best Zoom is hence 8dB, a significant amount. Of course, you also need to pair up a recorder with a decent microphone -- but at least a good recorder will eliminate one weak link from the audio chain.

Buying in Europe the Olympus LS-5 is only 8 Euros more expensive than the Zoom H2. That's a no brainer upgrade.

About noise reduction: yes it is a pain unless you have a pro rig worth thousands. So avoid it wherever possible. Get quieter recordings in the first place and gate/edit out the worst disruptions.

There's a good reason dialogue is often dubbed in post. Then it can be perfectly recorded with no disruptions. Otherwise, be prepared to redo takes when an airplane passes, a large lorry trundles past, etc. Protect all mics against wind noise and only record on still days. And soon.

Being acutely attuned to the actual sound being recorded is critical. That is why the sound recordist is a dedicated member of the crew who does nothing but wear sealed headphones always listening critically for problems. If you cannot afford a separate sound person then you are not going to get good sound. Period.

That is sometimes a necessary compromise, but be aware it is one.

I will keep an open mind, but I won't go so far as to concede I'm "Dead wrong".
I've done a fair amount of research into this, and the reviews up until this thread have been substantially favourable. eg: link you can try videomaker.com for more reviews and thier forums are full of nice people as well. I am wondering if at this point, the audio engineers are perhaps overestimating the needs of the average video shooter, and perhaps getting into a ff vs aps-c type debate over audio recorder needs?
I meann recommending a p&s to somebody that thinks they need a d-slr has been tried before...link

I am not saying you are "dead wrong" so much as those who who have been advising you are. It is a shame they are unaware of better alternatives to the mediocre products they recommend. I put this down to simple ignorance and the herd mentality, neither of which suits a Pentax user!

The Zoom H2 is 166 Euro and has inferior sound and toy-like build. The Olympus LS-5 is 175 Euro and has superior sound for a pocket recorder, with the best build I have seen on any small unit. Are you really saying that it's not worth 8 Euros to buy a superior unit? (Disclaimer: I am basing this on the LS-10 and LS-11. I have not held the LS-5 but by every account it is identical.)

I am not sure why one would even consider the Zoom H-4N if, as you intimate, this is for a starter setup. It costs 315 Euro and is still bettered significantly by the Olympus, as I have already mentioned. No beginner needs four audio tracks, so it is the people recommending that unit who are "overestimating the needs of the average video shooter", not myself.

I would rather buy two separate audio recorders than one Zoom H4. In fact, that is exactly what I did! If I need four tracks I have them. I can use one with a mono mic and the other for stereo ambiance, positioning each for best sound. Syncing manually is a piece of cake. If I don't need more than two channels (99% of the time), I can carry just one unit.

I also have the Fostex FR-2LE for when I need even better sound and phantom power. But that's another step up. I am restricting my comments in the main to the low end.

Oh my, I just read that "review" you linked to. What a joke.

"the built-in speaker on the back that lets you listen back to recordings without having to plug in a pair of headphones, demonstrate that Zoom's designers really did their homework designing the H4n"

A speaker? First, every shoulder recorder since year dot has a speaker. Marantz, Sony, Olympus all have speakers. Second, no-one in their right mind would use it, except for journalists checking to be sure they got something -- anything -- on tape.

"Zoom's everything-but-the-kitchen-sink approach feels refreshingly generous, offering more features than recorders that cost twice as much."

Who cares about features if the unit fails after six months due to bad soldering? Or if everything you record has an extra 8dB of noise you cannot remove?

CNET is a gadget site for kidz who want to spend money on toyz. It is not to be taken seriously. I doubt you look to them for camera lens recommendations, so why would you for anything else?

link
link
thier comments often do reflect the opinions of the masses of consumers, and thier reviews are often not too far off base....
here is videomakers assessment of the h1..link I will certianly keep the oly in mind when I go shopping for a recorder, but I'm not seeing any compelling reasons or evidence (as opposed to opinion) on the Zoom so I'm not ruling it out...yet.
I cannot find any evidence of recalls or consume lawsuits over bad soldering...
h2 review: link
and a chart: link comparing multiple brands.. which does, as you state rate the audio quality as less than the oly ls 10...
the h4n is still gonna blow away anything you can record on camera, and for video shooters the xlr inputs allow recording directly off the churches soundboards (which are seldom in the league you work in) so it boils down to needs vs cost vs value...
I won't rule out the oly ls11 or 5 but neither will I rule out the zoom h4n when I do buy one... right now I use a mixer board to record usb to a laptop, anything that comes in a pocket sized package with xlr inputs is worthy of consideration...

Which obviously means it isn't true.

Oh well, whatever. Go to consumer sites and take their advice if you wish. I am done with dispensing free advice based on dozens of years of experience.

I'm not discounting your credibility and actually appreciate this educational debate.
As I said, I WILL keep the oly in mind when I go shopping... oly on sale vs h4n at regular price would certianly clinch the deal.... but xlr inputs and lower cost vs an increase in audio quality 3/4's of the human population's hearing isn't trained/capable of discerning the difference...

well it is a tough choice..

It's getting hot here but in a good way i hope, everyone has a different view and we must respect that (even if they are wrong :wink .

But the thing is I already have set my eyes on those, they are quite a bit cheaper in gemrany you know.
And it's a comeplete system i can expeand on (if i decide so), if i buy a Rode now i must buy a new mic if i want a different soundcollection behaviour.

I was hoping the zoom h2 would be good enough to put the K6 to his right but if not i'll wait a bit longer on a recorder and get it later.
If the olympus is better and can record 2 tracks i'm already happy.
The sound doesn't have to be perfect and i don't want to complicate it too much at the moment, i'm only starting and with a DSLR for crying out loud

Basically what I want is a track for the K6 with a ME66/ME67 gun on it for the "aimed/specific" sound that's in the video and then a mic to record the ambient on his own track so i can balance those two in post processing, just to get a more serious sound approach.
Later on i might want more but for now this will probably keep me busy for months and hopefully a year or two before i want more. I also will need to master video as well so there is a lot to learn...

Well I hope no one is truly offended, I really am not. The technology changes so fast, you have to really do your homework to find out what is best for you. If I took every consumer review and sales clerks advice, I'd be a Canikion shooter, and much poorer.... but that does not mean I know everything.
Sometimes pushing the debate a bit really brings out the facts when two people with differing opinions defend thier positions. I cannot speak for rparmar, but I can admit, my opinion of the zoom is not based on firsthand testing, but on what other video shooters I respect have stated about thier firsthand use of the device is. Some of these guys, do have much higher end skills and gear, and none of them have anything negative to say about the oly nor the zoom h4n. They are on videomaker.com forums.

One thing in the H4's favour is it has XLR on board with phantom power supply. Handy if your camera also uses XLR or you want more flexibility with a standard connector.

Preciesly Don, these discussings are very usefull but you must take it not all to personal, by the end of the day you still want to walk out the door together i hope

The H4 looks quite expensive and the phantom power actually drains the power quicker from what i read so i wonder how useful it is for a portable solution.

... depends just how portable you need / intend to be.

I'm happy with the H2 and find it delivers a quality that we also use "professionally" - I will check, but I know that the guys who did the "brain" video knew all about the H2 - and for that, which is probably well-described as 'decent video quality on a budget', I find the H2 works well.
There were some comments about a 150Hz filter on the Olys. I have no idea how true this is, I have other things on my mind right now. I do know that I will probably hack my H2 at some point in the not-too-distant future to be able to use 4 tracks of mono mics at the same time.... there are instructions for this on the web.
I'm also happy with the battery life with eneloops - it works for me, but I can understand when someone says it is not good enough for them.

Bret

I just don't want to carry a bag full of batteries because i also need batteries for my flash lights and triggers as well so i've set my limit to 20 batteries, find that more than enough

I'll see if i can get a hands on with some recorders and see what they do but first need to get some quality speakers for my ears or else it's hard to test them