Apparently the K500 has no focus point indicators in the viewfinder. No doubt that saves some money, but I can't help feeling that it is also to do with how Pentax perceive the knowledge and abilities of the target user. Are they assuming that the concept of focusing, and choosing specifically where to focus is all beyond the grasp of likely buyers of the model?

It could have a FF 24mp sensor and shoot at 9fps, but this one omission would render it 'entry level' IMO.

They are all very good points, and it's great to be highlighting the amazingly flexible options we have with our Pentax DSLRs to apply these controls!

'Hyper-P' is of course very useful - I agree with that completely. Its cool to watch the LCD highlight jump from the Av to the Tv and the ISO as you switch around - thats got to be better than the competition surely?

And yes, I do use this sometimes. But I see it as a 'fine tune technique' to what is basically still program operation - meaning general shots without a specific 'priority' need where the camera gets you started - the user input is still a secondary action, not primary. So, for me, its just to, say, quickly get a higher shutter speed for a steady shot, or if the lighting is good then to quickly stop down a couple of stops to increase DOF - relatively minor adjustments to general shots.

I know this Hyper-P working can be used in a more extreme manner - but I guess my point has always been about the mental approach and the focus on the priority for the subject type - I believe that making this conscious decision at the start, then setting the camera to provide the specific priority control in a locked manner, leads more naturally to stronger working (as far as cameras settings would influence that).

Here's another thought - I don't think that P mode should be for beginners ... Why? Because, often with a new camera and kit lens thats what someone would start off using. A kit lens usually has a conservative maximum aperture range - mine is f3.5 at 18mm through to f5.6 at 55mm. Whats the effect of this ? Well, not much effect at all !!

The result can be an average and less than optimum setting for most shots. Small tweaks on the dials may have little impact - consequently our beginner doesn't see much difference between shots and does not learn to appreciate the possibilities that could be available.

If they were forced to consider a priority at the early stages then there's more thinking involved, more likey to provoke experiments with more extreme settings and start to see greater differences in their shots.

That point about 'lower flash sync speeds' on the K30 has me puzzled. Surely any camera has only one 'flash sync' speed - that is actually the maximum speed that can be set with flash active?

Of course, if in Av mode (on any DSLR) the light levels are lower, then the shutter speed will drop below the max sync in order to give correct ambiant exposure - and on the K7 / K5 series this would be pre-set by the user on the flash mode page - known as 'slow-sync' I believe. Surely this must be the same on the K30? This is normal behaviour on any DSLR I understood.

Things are starting to spin in my head now So, we've got a TIFF format that is a container containing a scanner RAW, and a RAW file format thats stores image data losslessly?

I had always understood that TIFF was an image format that can be lossless and that RAW was only a container for digital data, not an image?

Ok,I don't mean to dismiss those people's views, I just felt a bit left out

You don't feel that the priority modes are important and a significant aid to camera control for specific subject types or effect?

Yes, the K30 seems to be emerging here as anything but 'entry level'. It does have many control and customisation options, as well as advanced and high tech shooting functions. However, its more budget construction and lack of the levers and switches, compared to the K7 / K5 models, would limit its usefulness to pro or other high volume photographers I feel.

Maybe we can call it 'mid-level'.

Sorry, you've lost me with that one - a TIFF is a RAW file ???

As others have said, try and get to a shop where you can hold and use the cameras side by side. The K5 has a few additional physical controls (levers & switches) for some quick settings and rather more substantial body construction.

For a photographer who's fairly new to digital DSLR use (as you said you were) I'd still go for the K30, which would be more than adequate for the needs you identified.

In my view this 'thread summary' misses every significant and important point made

RAW tiff is something I've heard of before - its not a 'true' RAW though is it - I understand it is already rendered. Is this in fact what we were seeing on the software screen grab earlier?