Why bother?


Russ

Link Posted 03/07/2014 - 15:55
gwing wrote:
Now it would be helpful if manufacturers, as now, just gave the proper focal length for their lenses but on each camera body put a stamp saying '47 degrees at 50mm' for whatever they consider their standard length lens. That would help anyone picking up a camera with odd sensor sizes, especially if there was standardisation on whether the width, height or diagonal AOV was to be used

They do that with astronomical eyepieces. Each eyepiece has a focal length, stays the same regardless of what scope you put it in. A 30mm eyepiece is a 30mm regardless. But they also mark the eyepiece with its 'Apparent Field of View'. This way, regardless of which scope you own, you'll know instantly how the eyepiece will perform. The absolute newbies struggle with it initially but its a system that's quickly picked up. So no reason why it shouldn't work for camera lenses too.

andy_bell

Link Posted 04/07/2014 - 08:33
For most Pentax owners I can't imagine there will be an issue as to whether the lens is a "full-Frame" or a "cropped" version, as they are extremely unlikely to bother buying a "full-Frame" camera due to the expected price. if and when it arrives.
There is as much chance of them selling up and purchasing another brand instead.
Personally speaking I did have a film set up a good while ago, and it was useful for me to know that there is an equation for comparison, whether it is merely for angle of view and/or focal length comparison if you wish to include it. It certainly helped me in initially choosing which lenses I'd like to start with.
Now I'm back to where I was in the late 80's equipment wise, it is less of an issue...... as I'm very unlikely to go back to FF as I love my K5II's

Andy
A few bits & Bobs

dcweather

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 00:28
Horst wrote:
Quote:
I still convert degC to degF

Strange that when the weather gets hot the papers, TV and radio
start quoting the temperatures in degF

.

I am glad we are a bit more advanced in the colonies.

only deg C here , only metric here and only dollars and cebnts.

All imperial measurements are gone.

Except the gas pipe threads.


Regards, Horst

I wished it was the same here. I remember all the fuss when we decimalise currency and everyone said "old" people wouldn't understand it. It was no big deal but people still trot out similar arguments about lbs and inches etc. It's just laziness really in my opinion.

Horst

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 01:50
Quote:
For most Pentax owners I can't imagine there will be an issue as to whether the lens is a "full-Frame" or a "cropped" version, as they are extremely unlikely to bother buying a "full-Frame" camera due to the expected price. if and when it arrives.
There is as much chance of them selling up and purchasing another brand instead.

this comment does not make a lot of sense to me.
If Pentax brings out a FF Camera and no Pentax owner will buy it (except of me), then what is the point.
Or are you saying, only non Pentax owners will buy it.
Once it is released and you'll see the images I can take, due to the higher pixel count , better wide angle performance etc., you may change your mind. I also have a K5, but I have seen pictures made with the Leica M9 b&W and colour. It blows you away.

How do you know, what the final price of a Pentax FF will be. Pentax also have to compete with the other sellers. That sets the price.

Most of the research in software has already been done. even if the processor used may be different, this days with crosssassembling from one to the other processor, the actual work is minimal.
The longest part of it is the debugging.

Bring on FF.

Regards, Horst

andy_bell

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 08:37
The point was that most Pentax users are quite happy with their "cropped" sensor cameras, I guess most of the other brand users are happy with their cropped sensor cameras too.

My view is if you have a lens collection already based on APS-C sensors you'd probably be looking to upgrade more than just the camera body for full functionality, therefore unless you really want to stay with Pentax changing horses is just another route to FF.
Similarly if Pentax brought out a FF body and you were changing from another brand to get it, you'd still need to replace your lenses.

If you really want a FF camera why not go and buy your Leica M9? or is it because the price is prohibitive?
If that is so then I will rest my case, which is that most of the Pentax users here have K5's and older because they are happy with them and can't afford the extra cash outlay.
A few bits & Bobs

Horst

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 10:28
Quote:
If you really want a FF camera why not go and buy your Leica M9? or is it because the price is prohibitive?
If that is so then I will rest my case, which is that most of the Pentax users here have K5's and older because they are happy with them and can't afford the extra cash outlay.

Firstly is is not my Leica (I wish it was.)

How do you know, all K5 and older Pentax users are cpompletly happy and would not invest in a FF camera

Of course for me the price of a Leica M9 is prohibitive. 9000 Dollars is a fair bit.
Leica is a boutique camera, Pentax, Nikon and Canon are not. neither are any of the other SLR camera brands.
All I said, I have seen what a full frame ( with 24Mp , same as the K3) can do.

However I can not believe that a FF Pentax would be anywhere near this much.
On the contrary, I think with the competition Pentax has to try and compete with, I would say about 2 Grand would be a fair figure.
The prices of the sensors are not going up in time, they are going down.

Pentax have always been price competitive. Why should this change suddenly?

I think the big deal about trying to defend the APS-C size is just sour grapes, because the worry about not having lenses which will work with FF.

People bought lenses for APS-C , will in time also buy new DA lenses for full frame.

I am not a rich person. I bought my K5 with saved up coins. It takes a while, but it works.

I am happy to save for a FF the same way.

If a Pentax FF actually comes to fruition. you can easily start of with quite inexpensive F and FA lenses. there is no need to buy a whole set of the latest FF lenses.

One big disadvantage with the APS-C only lenses ist hat they can not be used on film cameras.

Regards, Horst
Last Edited by Horst on 17/07/2014 - 10:31

andy_bell

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 10:44
There's no sour grapes here, just stated fact. Perhaps you should re-read my posts and take them in context.
Your last line is making a point which I made 2 posts earlier.....
Its all about price isn't it?
You think a Pentax FF would be about 2K, well a K5II is currently about £700ish which means a FF would be about 2 1/2 times the cost, which for most Pentax owners is prohibitive.
Looks to me like your just arguing for the sake of it
A few bits & Bobs

Horst

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 15:23
Quote:
Looks to me like your just arguing for the sake of it

What I say is what I believe. Its not just for the sake of arguing.

Quote:
You think a Pentax FF would be about 2K, well a K5II is currently about £700ish which means a FF would be about 2 1/2 times the cost,

The 2K are in Dollars. this i would say is the price around the world, except England of course. Everything seems to be about twice as much as in the USA, HongKong, Australia and for example Japan.
2000 Dollars are about 1090GBP. if you bought it here in Australia or the rest of the World.

The enormous price in GB is of not very much concern. the UK is only as small part of the whole. It is your problem.

I can not see Pentax or any other manufacturer having sleepless nights about the English prices. After all they still sell in the UK too

Quote:
which for most Pentax owners is prohibitive.

Are you trying to say, no Pentax owners could afford a FF ?
Or are you saying, A K5II or similar is the poor man's Nikon or Canons FF?

The reason why there are no Pentax FF cameras on this forum, is because Pentax doesn't make one.!!

There are Pentax owners on this forum with Pentax 645 cameras. They are not cheap, but they still sell , even in the UK.

However this whole discussion does not get us any further, since your and my opinion are to far apart.

Regards, Horst
Last Edited by Horst on 17/07/2014 - 15:25

McGregNi

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 16:42
Probably not that far apart. ... My own feeling is that we cannot just ignore the possibilities of the future in our current planning and lens collecting. I have avoided buying a DA or other aps-c only lens and am now considering a new Tamron zoom that will serve my purpose now, but also be there for a future FF body.

I do believe Pentax will try and make it affordable, but for enthusiast photographers there's always limits. I know for myself the limit , at least initially, is likely to be just the body. So if my lenses are already in place it in fact makes it more likely that I'll actually move to FF.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

gartmore

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 19:03
Getting back to the Leica argument, two photojournalists I know use both the Leica M9 and the Fuji X-Pro1. Both say that the APSC size Fuji blows the FF Leica out of the water. I'm hopeful that the FF notion will eventually go away as sensor technology develops. However it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Pentax K1was FF.
Ken
“We must avoid however, snapping away, shooting quickly and without thought, overloading ourselves with unnecessary images that clutter our memory and diminish the clarity of the whole.” - Henri Cartier-Bresson -
Last Edited by gartmore on 17/07/2014 - 19:04

andy_bell

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 20:03
Horst,
It would seem that your grasp of English is not complete, you have been misinterpreting, mis-quoting, and taking comment out of context, and treating other members as if they are weak-minded.

You are correct that this this discussion will not get anyone any further as you seem to be incapable of taking any other valid point from anyone else if it disagrees with your point of view.

You really ought to re-read the whole thread, it would save you lots of typing.
A few bits & Bobs

gartmore

Link Posted 17/07/2014 - 20:28
Let's just have a calm conversation
Ken
“We must avoid however, snapping away, shooting quickly and without thought, overloading ourselves with unnecessary images that clutter our memory and diminish the clarity of the whole.” - Henri Cartier-Bresson -

RussV

Link Posted 18/07/2014 - 10:33
Am I being stupid here (quite possibly) but if Pentax releases a FF camera all that is needed for APS-C lenses (and I sure someone will make one) is a dedicated extension tube cum adaptor so that the APS-C image fills the FF sensor. Yes there will be some light loss but that isn't so important as modern sensors have high ISO capabilites. With full electrical and mechanical contacts the camera will still control the lens and exposure compensation can be dealt with by either a chip in the tube or firmware updates.
www.russv.me.uk
Last Edited by RussV on 18/07/2014 - 10:36

johnriley

Link Posted 18/07/2014 - 11:26
An adapter wouldn't need an extension tube, it would still use the K mount, so no adapter would be needed. The K mount is a full frame mount already.

Lenses are made to cover an image circle of a particular size, so most existing lenses won't cover the full area of FF. Some will, depending on the design.

Using an extension tube just enables a lens to focus closer, but we lose infinity focus and it doesn't change the image coverage.

I would suspect any FF body would have a DA setting so APS-C lenses could be used as APS-C lenses are now, using part of any larger sensor.
Best regards, John

Horst

Link Posted 18/07/2014 - 11:36
Quote:
Horst,
It would seem that your grasp of English is not complete, you have been misinterpreting, mis-quoting, and taking comment out of context, and treating other members as if they are weak-minded.

You are correct that this this discussion will not get anyone any further as you seem to be incapable of taking any other valid point from anyone else if it disagrees with your point of view.

You really ought to re-read the whole thread, it would save you lots of typing.

At first when I read that drivel, I thought of answering it. but I don't think it is worth the effort.

Regards, Horst
Last Edited by Horst on 18/07/2014 - 11:38
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