Scanning negs and slides


Kim C

Link Posted 05/12/2018 - 13:19
There have been various questions in the past about transferring old negs and slide to digital. The options seem to have been limited. The "cheap" scanners might be ok for social media but are poor quality. The flatbed scanners are better but still not very good and expensive. In the past I have used a Nikon 8000 but it has broken and is no longer supported by Nikon. It was also very slow.

So I have been looking at alternatives. Still early days but the results are looking good. I have attached a "scan" from a 6x9 neg. One pic of the full scan reduced in size and the other a crop of the detail "actual size". Working well with monochrome and yet to try reversal. With colour neg, getting rid of the orange mask is causing a headache. The scanner software does it very well but the settings are put in before the scan and so not easy to apply after. Awaiting a result from a question to Vuescan before I buy the pro version.

Although at the moment trying with MF, I did do a quick trial with 35mm using the K1 on the Pentax bellows and copy attachment with good results. So anyone wanting to "scan" 35mm at a reasonable cost might wish to try it. The bellows unit seem to sell even less than some of the USB scanners. Foirtunately I have 2 sets and so can almost leave one "set up".






Last Edited by Kim C on 05/12/2018 - 13:19

Algernon

Link Posted 05/12/2018 - 14:00
For 35mm a copy attachment that takes any lens is best. See this article.
Quite a lot of stuff also on Youtube.

Pentax made their own copier. The Bellows is doable, but quite big.

I use a Daylight Sphere bulb for diffused lighting which reduces scratches.



--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber

Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff

Algi

Kim C

Link Posted 05/12/2018 - 14:28
Algernon wrote:
For 35mm a copy attachment that takes any lens is best. See this article.
Quite a lot of stuff also on Youtube.

Pentax made their own copier. The Bellows is doable, but quite big.

I use a Daylight Sphere bulb for diffused lighting which reduces scratches.
--

I have tried those "copy attachments" several times in the past. The inbuilt lens is generally very poor quality. Even the new android/ios app seems to give much better results. At the moment the "scans" I am getting are very close to the ones off the Nikon 8000 scanner. True I'm using the 645z but it is on 6x9 negs. I only tried it briefly but bearing in mind the smaller size of 35mm, the pixel density/quality are leading me to believe that even the K1 on bellows should match the Nikon scanner. Besides I already have the 35mm bellows, copy attachment and macro lens. The K1 will fit on the bellows but you do need to fit a short extension ring between the camera and the bellows unit. Not a problem as you just move the rear slide further forward than you would need to without it. The K3 will fit without but it is a very tight fit.

Algernon

Link Posted 05/12/2018 - 15:46
The one in the article doesn't have a built in lens. Mostly they screw into the filter thread of say a Pentax Macro lens. Quite hard to find. Non on ebay at present. This is about the crudest one, but gives a good idea of what's needed.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BDB-CAMERA-SLIDE-COPIER-ATTACHMENT-/132777195632?hash...

This is the Pentax one (I think mines got a built in helecoid)
https://www.pentaxforums.com/accessoryreviews/PENTAX-Slide-Holder-1x-K.html

The Pentax Bellows + Slide Copier should be OK with the K-1 and a 50mm, but with a K-3/K-5 it needs a longer lens to fill the APS-C frame . I used to use a 63mm Nikon EL, but people have used small zooms 35-70mm etc.

Pixel shift should produce awesome copies.
--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber

Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff

Algi
Last Edited by Algernon on 05/12/2018 - 15:56

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Kim C

Link Posted 05/12/2018 - 16:22
Algernon wrote:
The one in the article doesn't have a built in lens. Mostly they screw into the filter thread of say a Pentax Macro lens. Quite hard to find. Non on ebay at present. This is about the crudest one, but gives a good idea of what's needed.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BDB-CAMERA-SLIDE-COPIER-ATTACHMENT-/132777195632?hash...

This is the Pentax one (I think mines got a built in helecoid)
https://www.pentaxforums.com/accessoryreviews/PENTAX-Slide-Holder-1x-K.html

The Pentax Bellows + Slide Copier should be OK with the K-1 and a 50mm, but with a K-3/K-5 it needs a longer lens to fill the APS-C frame . I used to use a 63mm Nikon EL, but people have used small zooms 35-70mm etc.

Pixel shift should produce awesome copies.
--

Ah ok, I understand you now. I thought you meant the things like the old Ohnar zoom slide copier. I would imagine the tubes are better than the open frame versions. One big advantage of the bellows copier is that it can take film strips as well as mounted slides. IUnless you mount your negs, I would imagine it would be hard to do with a tube.

What method do you use the get rid of the yellow mask on colour negs? I think what I might try next is the take a pic of an unexposed slide, invert it, take a colour sample and use that to make a gel for the flash using printable acetate.

Algernon

Link Posted 05/12/2018 - 17:49
The tubular ones are better. The un-branded one I have surprisingly has a flap at the back that allows a strip of 35mm negs to be put in and then clamped. The Pentax one only takes slides or negs between bits of card. I also have a Novoflex one which takes both.

I only ever did one colour neg. just to see if it was possible. Came out OK I think I just took a WB off some grey concrete. It's mostly slides and B&W I used to copy. There are videos on Youtube that show how to correct the colours in PS.

Don't forget to photograph the emulsion side of the film only and flip it round during editing.

This video shows how to set up the old M42 Pentax bellows and copier.
https://youtu.be/Xh8vJCvsZtY

--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber

Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff

Algi
Last Edited by Algernon on 05/12/2018 - 17:51

Kim C

Link Posted 05/12/2018 - 18:52
Algernon wrote:
The tubular ones are better. The un-branded one I have surprisingly has a flap at the back that allows a strip of 35mm negs to be put in and then clamped. The Pentax one only takes slides or negs between bits of card. I also have a Novoflex one which takes both.

I only ever did one colour neg. just to see if it was possible. Came out OK I think I just took a WB off some grey concrete. It's mostly slides and B&W I used to copy. There are videos on Youtube that show how to correct the colours in PS.

Don't forget to photograph the emulsion side of the film only and flip it round during editing.

This video shows how to set up the old M42 Pentax bellows and copier.
https://youtu.be/Xh8vJCvsZtY

--

Many thanks. Yes I have been doing my homework.
But going on what I have tried so far, most of the methods on youtube and most discussion forums about PS and others don't quite give the same results. Either that of they are very intensive and time consuming. Most dedicated scanner programs allow you to input the emulsion before doing the scan. The output is already inverted with the cast removed. I have some scans from the Nikon and trying to get all of those methods to match the quality not of the scan itself but colour balance is proving hard.

As to the bellows, I have been using mine for quite a while now. Making digital copies is a quantum leap easier than film copies.

MikeInDevon

Link Posted 06/12/2018 - 10:50
I've had success using my K-50 with the very sharp SMC PENTAX FA 1:2.8 50mm MACRO together with a cheap slide copier attached see these examples:

B&W 35mm negatives
link
and
link

Colour 35mm negative
link

Colour 35mm slide
link

B&W 35mm half frame negative
link

Regards
Mike

womble

Link Posted 06/12/2018 - 15:39
Check out Colorperfect for the inversion of colour scans. I use a fluid scan on an Epson V750 and Vuescan, scanning as a raw file (i.e., it still looks like a negative) and then do the inversion in Colorperfect. Just using the defaults looks great. If you are using a dSLR as the "scanner", it should still work.

K.
Kris Lockyear
It is an illusion that photos are made with the camera… they are made with the eye, heart and head. Henri Cartier-Bresson
Lots of film bodies, a couple of digital ones, too many lenses (mainly older glass) and a Horseman LE 5x4.

My website

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Kim C

Link Posted 06/12/2018 - 16:10
womble wrote:
Check out Colorperfect for the inversion of colour scans. I use a fluid scan on an Epson V750 and Vuescan, scanning as a raw file (i.e., it still looks like a negative) and then do the inversion in Colorperfect. Just using the defaults looks great. If you are using a dSLR as the "scanner", it should still work.

K.

Thanks, Trialling Silverfast HDR at the moment. Giving excellent results but the full copy is rather expensive.

Algernon

Link Posted 09/12/2018 - 10:53
From his blog dated March 20, 2018 Jay Maisel is quite happy scanning his slides with a FF camera. So if it's good enough for the master it's good enough for you

This sounds simple today, but we had been trying using scanners, and it was a tough, slow, expensive unsatisfactory experience. Matt figured out that we could do the job by using a Nikon D810 with a Nikkor Macro 60mm lens. Since he’s started, we’ve done almost 14,000 images. We have now switched to a D850, and he’s even happier with that.

Extract from.......
https://www.jaymaisel.com/blogs/news/tagged/maisel-meanderings


--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber

Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff

Algi

HarisF1

Link Posted 09/12/2018 - 21:50
How much editing scope do you get by scanning film with an FF?

I would imagine it's nowhere near what you get with a RAW file directly from a digital camera.

Kim C

Link Posted 09/12/2018 - 22:12
HarisF1 wrote:
How much editing scope do you get by scanning film with an FF?

I would imagine it's nowhere near what you get with a RAW file directly from a digital camera.

More or less exactly the same.

With the 645z you can take the pic either in RAW DNG or in Raw TIFF. With the K1, you can still take in raw but DNG only. Then if you use a dedicated program like the colourperfect plugin for PS or Silverfast HDR, it is much the same as processing a Raw file.

But then again, it also comes back to the use of film as a medium. It has become the "norm" to rely on in camera settings to take pictures and then correct any "mistakes" in PP. With filn, you don't have that luxury. It is very much about getting it "right" when the picture is taken. So, it is affected by film type, make and emulsion. It might involve the use of colour correcting filters. And maybe even more so on the basics like getting the exposure right. No chimping so there is no practice shot. If you have got the exposure "right" in the first place, there is perhaps less need for pp.
Last Edited by Kim C on 09/12/2018 - 22:12

pschlute

Link Posted 09/12/2018 - 23:04
Kim C wrote:


With the 645z you can take the pic either in RAW DNG or in Raw TIFF.

That's a new one on me. I thought TIFF was another image format like JPEG, albeit with a lot more functionality.... 16 bit and layers ?

Surely Raw is raw (PEF, DNG or other camera specific types), and is not by itself an image file ?
Peter



My Flickr page

Kim C

Link Posted 09/12/2018 - 23:37
pschlute wrote:
Kim C wrote:


With the 645z you can take the pic either in RAW DNG or in Raw TIFF.

That's a new one on me. I thought TIFF was another image format like JPEG, albeit with a lot more functionality.... 16 bit and layers ?

Surely Raw is raw (PEF, DNG or other camera specific types), and is not by itself an image file ?

Raw is "unprocessed". The main point of raw is that you don't lose any data in the file. Jpg is generally a compressed format. When the file is compressed some data is lost and cannot be put back. There is no compression in tiff or at least none when a camera uses it. The very early digitals used tiff as their "raw" format. Cameras like the Minolta Dimage 3000 which came out about the same time as the other early 3 Meg digitals. And DNG is not truly "raw". It is a standard developed by Adobe for "loseless" saving of data. And guess what......... It is based/developed from Tiff.
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