K5IIS V CANON 6D


simonkit

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 08:32
I'm currently having a similiar dilemma and have read through quite a few revies of various alternatives...unfortunately I can't go too deeply into them on here as this forum doesn't really permit major discussion of other marques...I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions as to why that is

What I am sure of, despite comments suggesting otherwise, is that full frame sensors offer an improvement in both image quality and captured detail over APS-C sensors, certainly far more than moving from a K5 to a K5IIs...the advantages of full frame are very well documented across the web in reviews etc but the best way to judge is seeing large prints, there's a significant difference.

Having said the above the K5 in any of its forms is capable of producing high quality prints up to 36x24 inch, IMHO you would see a difference in detail if compared to a full frame print at these sizes but bear in mind that prints of this size generally aren't viewed at "pixel-peeping" distances so it does need some thinking about, especially considering the cost difference.

I've already decided that full frame will be my next move, it's not an urgent one as I'm not 100% happy with either the Canon 6D or Nikon D600, both of which seem to have some issues...the Nikon D800 is without doubt excellent but at £2000 just for a body it's a very expensive option bearing in mind you need also to buy good glass to use it's very high resolution sensor. Sony are also making interesting developments in Full frame, the A99 replacement could be very interesting indeed with its EVF technology which Sony seems to be doing a very good job of.

Personally I'm waiting to see if Pentax makes it's mind up regarding full frame in the next 4/5 months, if it doesn't I'll be heading elsewhere, most probably Nikon as I think they currently have the edge with Full frame cameras.

Simon
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Last Edited by simonkit on 24/06/2013 - 08:38

johnriley

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 08:34
Quote:

In regards to "politically correct" I'm referring to what's politically correct to those justifying their purchase. Sorry if that wasn't previously clear

No problem, but perhaps not the best choice of words. I still think it's the case though that if you are arguing against the purchase then it's as much justifying not buying as it could be justifying buying. So it works both ways. You are defending your lack of purchase. Someone else is defending their purchase.

However, although we all want to justify in one way what we do, I think it's necessary to acknowledge that it's fair here, having bought something like the IIs, that owners are in a special position to be able to make more informed comments.

Non-owners don't know that if they did buy a IIs they wouldn't be stunned by the improvement after all. Just like people who are owners are stunned by the K-01 and Q cameras, despite the doubters.

My suggestion is that we should listen to them and take on board their experiences, the real experiences that Mr S has suggested many times are better than those who are published by organisations such as EPZ and DPR.
Best regards, John

johnriley

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 08:47
Quote:
I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions as to why that is

Because it always broke out into range war and the majority of members did not like it. So no mystery or conspiracy.
Best regards, John

bettyswolloks

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 10:21
Blah Blah Blah

johnriley

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 11:02
Indeed, but let's keep cheerful about it.
Best regards, John

smudge

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 11:07
simonkit wrote:
I'm currently having a similiar dilemma and have read through quite a few revies of various alternatives...unfortunately I can't go too deeply into them on here as this forum doesn't really permit major discussion of other marques...I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions as to why that is

What I am sure of, despite comments suggesting otherwise, is that full frame sensors offer an improvement in both image quality and captured detail over APS-C sensors, certainly far more than moving from a K5 to a K5IIs...the advantages of full frame are very well documented across the web in reviews etc but the best way to judge is seeing large prints, there's a significant difference.

Having said the above the K5 in any of its forms is capable of producing high quality prints up to 36x24 inch, IMHO you would see a difference in detail if compared to a full frame print at these sizes but bear in mind that prints of this size generally aren't viewed at "pixel-peeping" distances so it does need some thinking about, especially considering the cost difference.

I've already decided that full frame will be my next move, it's not an urgent one as I'm not 100% happy with either the Canon 6D or Nikon D600, both of which seem to have some issues...the Nikon D800 is without doubt excellent but at £2000 just for a body it's a very expensive option bearing in mind you need also to buy good glass to use it's very high resolution sensor. Sony are also making interesting developments in Full frame, the A99 replacement could be very interesting indeed with its EVF technology which Sony seems to be doing a very good job of.

Personally I'm waiting to see if Pentax makes it's mind up regarding full frame in the next 4/5 months, if it doesn't I'll be heading elsewhere, most probably Nikon as I think they currently have the edge with Full frame cameras.

Simon

TBH Simon I would love to see what you would produce with a Pentax 645D. It would seem to be the ideal tool for your work - and much cheaper than it used to be.
Regards, Philip

McGregNi

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 11:54
This K5IIs vs another brands 'FF' thing is one of these typical comparison situations (like the 's' or 'not s' one.) There's an obvious technology difference which, by logic, must offer something 'better' over the other - thats clear.

It is deciding what that particular 'better' means to each individual, whether that 'better' is relevent to that person and their photogrphy, and what pitfalls there might be.

Big prints have been mentioned here as 'looking much better'. So does that mean if you don't do big prints a 'FF' is wasted?

Pitfalls? FF alters your lens choices (if not forcing you to buy all your lenses again!), but I have read that FF can be rather unforgiving of any lens quirks or weaknesses. For example, I have a 'FullFrame' 14mm lens, which if I put it on a FF camera would be truely spectacularly wide - but, could I tolerate the extra levels of edge distortion that will be revealed which are currently cropped out ?
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Pentaxophile

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 12:44
I have read that a so-so lens on FF will still be better than on APSC. On APSC you are cropping the lens's image circle, so I guess that makes sense. It's true that to get the full potential of FF you do need the best lens though. But isn't that also true of APSC?

As with the Samyang, there are some lenses which have problems at the edges which APSC hides by conveniently cropping them off! That's where you could say they 'work better' on APSC.
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simonkit

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 12:53
McGregNi wrote:


Big prints have been mentioned here as 'looking much better'. So does that mean if you don't do big prints a 'FF' is wasted?

Pitfalls? FF alters your lens choices (if not forcing you to buy all your lenses again!), but I have read that FF can be rather unforgiving of any lens quirks or weaknesses. For example, I have a 'FullFrame' 14mm lens, which if I put it on a FF camera would be truely spectacularly wide - but, could I tolerate the extra levels of edge distortion that will be revealed which are currently cropped out ?

Both very good questions,

As you say FF is a personal decision dependant upon your own requirements and although forums are useful for digging out information, as conflicting as it can be sometimes,ultimately no-one will find the answer to the FF question on here or elsewhere as everyone has different needs.

To sort of answer the 1st question though FF isn't only about image detail/IQ, it has advantages for portrait photographers with its ability to achieve shallower DOF than crop sensors..reduced noise/additional cropping ability etc etc are some of the advantages, although it also has downside too...less reach for telephoto, bulkier, more expensive and that brings us to question 2, the need for high quality glass


This 2nd question is one which does have me slightly concerned with any new Pentax FF which might appear..there's little to no "user data" out there so early adopters might find that some of the old full frame lenses aren't quite up to the job. The advantage other marques have here is that FF for them has been around for a good while so the lenses to use or to avoid are quite well known, potentially moving to another brand has less inherent risk, albeit probably more expense

Simon
My website http://www.landscapephotographyuk.com

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Dodge69

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 12:59
I can see how this constant grating about the FF can wear people down. I too might be making a serious decision upon Pentax's next release, but purely as a 'gadget junkie' rather than worries over image quality. I was recently wavering over a choice between K5IIs and D600, ended up using my brain and picking up a FA77Ltd instead, certainly seems to be a real quality jump, and with long term value rather than betting on the transient nature of bodies.

There are arguments for working professionals regards flash use & lens rental(D3x, 5dMkIII), and perhaps ultra serious landscape types regard image detail (D800E, 645D).

But for everybody else, the vastly over-whelming majority of camera users, your just getting bedazzled by a marketing ploy. All these cameras are so good nowadays, we really are splitting hairs, splitting pixels even.

Flip-side to the coin, folks leave Canikon for Pentax all the time. Lots of folks are ditching all 3 brands for the new compact APS-C's.

I would refer you to the champions on the Pentax Gallery, or how about our own Tim Pile link ??

We repeat these FF threads so it's worth repeating this : It ain't the camera that takes good photos.... have the confidence to go out and shoot, if you've got enough money to buy mega gear great, but don't spend money, (especially if you don't have it) to make up for lack of creativity and/or confidence.

I think if you delve a little deeper, folks who have upgraded to bodies like the D800E actually have good careers, be it in I.T. or whatever, that allows them to buy these things, it's not their talent, great or average, that is allowing for these choices.
Pentax pour des images riches en détails!

johnriley

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 13:08
Good points Dodge69.

Money could be better spent actually going somewhere interesting to get interesting shots.
Best regards, John

davidstorm

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 13:45
Common sense appears to be spoken at last, very well put John:

johnriley wrote:
Quote:

In regards to "politically correct" I'm referring to what's politically correct to those justifying their purchase. Sorry if that wasn't previously clear

No problem, but perhaps not the best choice of words. I still think it's the case though that if you are arguing against the purchase then it's as much justifying not buying as it could be justifying buying. So it works both ways. You are defending your lack of purchase. Someone else is defending their purchase.

However, although we all want to justify in one way what we do, I think it's necessary to acknowledge that it's fair here, having bought something like the IIs, that owners are in a special position to be able to make more informed comments.

Non-owners don't know that if they did buy a IIs they wouldn't be stunned by the improvement after all. Just like people who are owners are stunned by the K-01 and Q cameras, despite the doubters.

My suggestion is that we should listen to them and take on board their experiences, the real experiences that Mr S has suggested many times are better than those who are published by organisations such as EPZ and DPR.

John is right, there has probably been more time and effort expended on these threads by people trying to justify their 'non-purchase' than there has by those who have purchased. In my case at least, as I mentioned a day or so ago, there's nothing for me to justify as my K-5IIs cost me a significant amount less than a standard K-5II would have done, purely because I happened upon a set of circumstances that enabled me to buy cheaply. Most people are not in that position, but I think it's worth stating so that everyone understands.

I think things are constantly read into the written word that were not intended by the writer. All I have ever tried to do is give my opinion based on actual usage and I've posted a fair few images to assist with this process. I do not regret buying the IIs in the slightest and I would buy another one tomorrow if I had need of an additional camera.

Smeggypants wrote:
These comparison databases aren't useless ( unless they provide results politically incorrect for some

My honest opinion (which is all I ever give) is that comments like this are really unhelpful and serve only to annoy. I know this was probably aimed at me, but it is at best insensitive to other K-5IIs owners who have contributed to the various threads and at worst it is insulting to our motives and intelligence. This is why I chose not to contribute further in recent days to these threads as I felt that it was pointless trying to be helpful only to get responses like the one above back.

I've put some more K-5IIs images on another thread in the 'Your Photos' Forum section if anyone is interested to have a look; these are not designed to make any comparisons with any other camera, I just put them on there for CC and I thank those sincerely who have taken the time and trouble to comment.

Regarding K-5IIs vs Canon 6D, I don't have any idea on this one, but my guess would be that the 6D produces more detailed and lower noise images. If it doesn't that would be a real shock

Best wishes
David
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Dodge69

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 13:50
LOL, also a very good point John.

Folks can bang on about lenses and bodies all they want, but in all seriousness the most vital element of pushing my photography is my swifty yet thrifty Mondeo TDCi.
Pentax pour des images riches en détails!

davidstorm

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 13:56
Dodge69 wrote:
Folks can bang on about lenses and bodies all they want, but in all seriousness the most vital element of pushing my photography is my swifty yet thrifty Mondeo TDCi.

Great quote, but what about your legs? Does your Mondeo TDCI drive up to Lakes and to the top of mountains?

Cheers
David
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Nicola's Apartments, Kassiopi, Corfu

Some cameras, some lenses, some bits 'n' bobs

StephenHampshire

Link Posted 24/06/2013 - 14:07
davidstorm wrote:
Dodge69 wrote:
Folks can bang on about lenses and bodies all they want, but in all seriousness the most vital element of pushing my photography is my swifty yet thrifty Mondeo TDCi.

Great quote, but what about your legs? Does your Mondeo TDCI drive up to Lakes and to the top of mountains?

Cheers
David

It's a long walk from Hampshire to the nearest mountain!
If Pentas bought out a full frame, I could use proper wide angles again, just like I Did on my (Canon) film SLR
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