K10D vs K20D

OK I have to make a choice, and soon if I am going to get to grips with a new camera before our trip in May. (And before the K10D stocks are all gone.)

I would like to hear from those of you who have owned both models.
Is the K20D worth all the extra dosh? Would you wholeheartedly recommend one? Or do you secretly regret forking out on it as it doesn't offer that much improvement over the K10D?
I would love to hear your views on the K20D. I know everyone here loves the K10D but I want to hear more about the K20D.
I have already discounted the K200D as I don't want to go from a pentaprism to a pentamirror.

I had the GX10 and now have the K20D. For the photography that I like to do (Macro and Wildlife) I much prefer the K20D. There are a few reasons:

1. The larger sensor makes a big difference to me as with wildlife shots I often need to crop the image to get additional magnification

2. The noise you get in shadow at higher ISO's is very nice compared to the K10D. It's much more grainy and is very very easy to clean up with some NR in PP. The K10D tended to look blurry when using NR compared to how the K20D looks. Again this helps me in low light situations where I need a fast speed and so need to use higher ISO.

I'm not sure whether there's any real AF difference between the two, though I do tend to get better AF accuracy that I did with the GX10 (less FF or BF issues that I seemed to get in the past).

Weight and size-wise they're basically the same, with larger battery and SD card compartment opening levers.

The downside of the K20D - very large RAW files - had to move to 4GB SDHC SanDisk Extreme III cards to cope

I had a similar choice to make a few weeks ago, just before the K20 was officially launched. I looked very carefully at the specs, read all the reports I could lay my hands on, and weighed up the cost factors.

It seemed to me that the K10 offered almost the same functionality as the K20, and that the difference between 14 and 10 megapixels (in real terms) wasn't nearly as much as most people would think. Had it been 20 megapixels I think that may have persuaded me otherwise.

Do consider the extra demands on your PC/Mac, also. Having tried editing on my old system (XP1900, 1 gig RAM) with 16 bit RAW files and my new PC (Quad core 2.4, 3 gigs RAM), there is a world of difference in the time it takes to complete CPU-heavy actions. So much so, that I wouldn't be prepared to work on 16 bit RAW files on anything less than my current machine. So, apart from the initial price differential between the K10 and the K20, you would well find yourself in the frustrating position of having to seriously upgrade your computer hardware in order to fully use the advantages of the K20.

So what do I think of the K10? Well, it has difficulty in focusing in poor light on occasion (but, to be honest, I tend to manually focus a lot anyway), the metering isn't perfect (but is it on any camera?), and the kit lens it comes with isn't quite the quality I was expecting (though certainly far from poor). But overall I think it's a fantastic camera, and I don't for one minute regret buying it, and am certain that I made the right choice in getting the K10 over the K20.

Now when the K30 appears (with 21 Mp sensor, 3" swivel Live View, noiseless ISO 12,800) I might well be tempted.

In terms of handling the two cameras are identical, the changes in position of buttons is negligable and done to accomodate the larger screen.

What you get with a K20D over a K10D is
less noise at higher ISO
ISO 3200 and 6400 (if you dare as they are noisy)
the ability to extend the dynamic range of a picture (but you loose ISO 100)
external flash socket - excelent if you have some old but good equipment
live view - great for macro or unusual camera angles.
more pixels = greater croping ability without loss of quality

I find that for indoor shooting I now tend to up the ISO (to 800 or 1200) rather than reaching for the flash gun.
As previously mentioned you need to ensure a good amount of RAM (my 7 year old laptop with 256MB strugles to rotate 14Mp JPGs and takes time to move to the next picture in Windows picture viewer)

As mentioned in another post on the forum you cannot turn tthe noise suppression black shot off for long exposures, this would annoy me if I did a lot of long exposures.

It dosen't seem to remember picture orientation either (even though I have 'remember orientation' turned on) my K10D potrait pictures appear in windows and photoshop in portrait format but K20D portrait format appear as landscape so needs to be rotated.

There are lots of small improvements such as being able to see more camera settings on the screen and if you have front or rear focusing problems these can be adjusted in camera by each lens or for all lenses.

If you have SDM lenes the focusing is so quiet and fast that you hardly know its happened.

If you do a lot of telephoto work then the extra pixels will enable you to crop more eg a picture taken with a 500mm lens on the K10D has about the same number of pixels as an 85% (in each direction) crop using a k20D - but that cropped picture would require a 600mm lens on the K10D.

Bracketing is made easier too as you can set the camera so that one press of the shutter takes all 3 or 5 pictures rather needing to keep the shutter pressed - good feature if using the infrared remote.

Although each difference between the two cameras is small they all add up and if I was buying just one of them today then I would go for the K20D as otherwise I would keep wishing I had that extra feature that is only on the higher spec model.

I'm sure that you will enjoy which ever camera you choose as both are excellent cameras.

Bob

That surprises me. Surely both bodies are the same.

G

I can confirm that SDM focusing on my K10D is silent and very very fast

I think it depends from which camera you are upgrading.

I have a DS and I am tempted to upgrade and if I will then it will be a K20D. The jump from 6 to 14.6MP is quite a step and more importantly the increase in dynamic range is a huge step (even when the K20 is in normal mode).

The K10D allready has a much larger dynamic range then the 6MP Pentax bodies. If I had a K10D I don't think that I would upgrade.

For me the reasons to upgrade are the following (in order of importance to me)

1. higher dynamic range
2. shake reduction
3. jump from 6 to 14.6 MP
4. optional battery grip

I occasionally do some product photography for my work and most of the time these are stainless steel items which are highly reflective. A higher dynamic range would be very nice in this case.

By the way, does anyone know if metering with manual lenses works better with the K20 then with the K10? I will surely hold on to my DS for the old manual lenses (and TTL flash support).

In short, if you can afford the K20D and you are upgrading from one of the 6MP Pentax SLR's then I would go for the K20D. If you want to save money and you don't care about the additional features then the K10D is a huge bargain at the moment (if you still can find one that is).

Yes while Pentax says there is an embargo on - there will be a new camera to replace the K10D, and it will sit between K200 and K20D and there will be a new K100 replacement.

When - don't know, but Pentax staff have been told to keep quiet.

And since it is the motor in the lens that:

a/ makes the noise, and

b/ does the focussing

I would expect both noise and speed to be identical on the K10D and K20D.

G

Between the K20D and K200D? I can't see it myself, but then I'm no expert in these things. I would say they've got such a camera at the moment, and it's called the K10D. I just can't see what they'd change. Either they upgrade the K200D a bit, but then it would be a K10D, or they downgrade the K20D a bit, but that would be a K10D.

Something below a K200D? Well that's a K100D. Seems if they want to have cameras in these areas, they're already in existence.

And price point? With just £300 between them, there's not a huge amount of room for another model.

Hopefully now they're concentrating on:

a) New Lenses
b) Design of K?D
c) Replacement for K200D & K20D

I think other lower range models would be a waste of resources.

Dan

I wrote this elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here.

For me the K20D is the K10D done properly. The K10D was great (I loved mine) but it had a few problems. For me AF accuracy was the biggest issue, esp with the DA* glass. I had it corrected in sevice, but getting the K20D now has proven to me that Pentax missed out on a few aspects with the K10D.

The K20D is the second version of a design, and generally these are just much better. Lots of little and hidden improvements. It's not the same of course, but look at the JPG engine in the K100D compared to the *istDS, that's also the second version of a design much improved by Pentax...

The cost of a K20D over a K10D is huge, but you should keep in mind that a new K20D has some resale value should you decide to move on in a year or two, whereas with a second hand K10D this is much less (perhaps even non-existant by then).

hth, Wim

They haven't got the K10D any more. It is discontinued. You can still find stocks of it at the moment, but no more will be made.

I think a replacement is needed unless the 'street price' of the K20D soon comes down to about £500.

With the short product lifecycles of digital cameras I expect that will also be true of the K20 once the next top model (K2?) is announced.

When buying any electronic kit these days – you basically have to just write off any resale value.

Thanks everyone. Some really helpful answers. Thanks again Wim for your opinion, I always value it.
I am going from a Ds to a new model. I intend to keep whatever I get for a good few years, even if Pentax come out with an all singing all dancing model in the next two years. I am leaning towards the K20D simply because I think it will see me through the coming years.
I shall spend some serious time looking for the best deal on one. I'll probably buy one in the Netherlands, even though they cost more here, because of the servicing of it should it need it.
I'll keep you posted

Indeed, but if you keep up with the current models like I have it makes sense.

Example:
I cannot possibly find a new owner for my old *istDS that I kept as a back-up for my K10D and expect them to pay for it. It's simply too old. The same would apply to a K10D if you bought one now and would want to sell it in 2 years time.
In light of that conclusion (and the fact that I never needed the back-up) I decided to sell my K10D immediately after getting my K20D. I got a fair price for it still, actually half the price I got it for. If I want to sell it in one or two years to get the new model I'm sure the K20D will still have some resale potential.

I don't think the the K2 will have that impact on the K20D as it will play in a different league, but there's bound to be a K30D in the future...

This is only valid if you don't skip a generation of course!

In the case of Gwyn, I suppose the resale argument is not important as she looks at using a camera for longer than just one product cycle (as she did with her DS). But for some this may be a valid point?

Wim