Cold ,wet and dark Whitby!

Apologies for this being my first post here but I have no intention of hanging around.

I'm one of the goths that has been attending Whitby from the very early days, and just here to point out what's been going on with regard to St Marys church in Whitby. We have asked to pass on the message to those not a part of the festival from the vicar and church warden to ask that people do not use the graveyard for photography. A while ago someone was killed when one of the stones fell on them, ironic I know but not funny.. anyway, those stones are on a cliff edge, open to the elements and far from safe. We've promised the church that we would do all we can to stop people using it as a location and so here I am, on here, pointing out that while you're welcome in the town, can everyone please make sure they avoid that part of it it.

Also, whilst touring the various forums and places to spread this message I've noticed un underlying theme that this event is nothing more than a free photo shoot. In response to that I'd ask that people show some respect those attending the weekend, many of whom are there for the music and not to be hassled for photographs or treated like this is some kind of circus.

Remarks like "when people dress and/or act outrageously and call the attention to themselves in a public place, then I act like they want the attention, so I don't give a rat's a$$ about a "publication form" do nothing but annoy people. We are not dressing this way to draw attention to ourselves, we are goths, this for some of us is a 24/7 thing, and remarks like that are exteremely offensive. We are part of the worlds longest running subcultures, we face abuse for how we look on a daily basis and some (Sophie Lancaster, look her up) have been killed for it. Those attitudes are behind deaths like hers.

Also "gareth and me where waiting for her to come out of the shop
i think she knew we where waiting so i just took a few shots
in between people walking in front of us" shows exactly what people think of us, that you think we are there for your entertainment, and should therefore pose for you. This is so not the case with a large (and growing) number of people.

Please show some respect for those who are essentially on holiday and relaxing by being the person that they'd get normally get attacked for being when at home. By all means turn up, and have fun, but remember that a lot of goths are not some attraction to be snapped at, they could be a member of your family. Yes, some turn up purely to entertain you it seems, but the assumption that we all do has to stop.

Martin-og thanks for joining in the discussion about Whitby.

To be fair many of the people at the weekend are not true goths. They happily parade the town in a variety of costumes and offer to stop and be photographed. Indeed some are looking for entry into modelling and use this as a practice/networking.

I accept what you say about some peoples attitude to goths genrally. Last weekend I was talking to a lady from Sheffield about the problems she faced as a goth in her own city.

The comments you have above from the forum regarding waiting for people coming out of shops- I think are out of context.

Dave

Firstly, there are no gravestones at the cliff edge.

Secondly, I have never seen a report of anyone being killed by a gravestone in Whitby Churchyard. This is clearly gossip and can be ignored.

Thirdly, to come onto this forum understanding nothing of what we are about seems naive. I have NEVER photographed anyone at the Goth weekend without asking. And yes, that includes the lady in the shop. I asked if I could take her photo and she agreed.

As for your comment that "you have no intention of hanging around" that to me smacks of a bully who hurls abuse then runs away.

I tend to feel theat the Whitby goth weekend has two facets, those the live the Goth life style and those that come along to enjoy the spectacle of dressing up and being part of a stunning spectacle, with thet knowledge I always ask each person if I can take a photo, in every case so far I have not been refused, if they did I would wish them good day and move on.

I personally know several people who actually come from each of those facets mentioned by Graham, two of them are known to all who come on the Whitby PU meets the others are what you would call "true Goths" and actually shun the Whitby Goth weekends simply because it has become nothing more than people dressing up for a bit of attention.

Come to think about it I cant recal seeing very many "true Goths" at this event for a very long time, and even if I did I would probably not ask them for photos as the costumes created and worn by the many who come simply to dress up and be photographed make much better subjects.

And comparing the attention Goths get at whitby to the sort recieved by Sophie Lancaster is totally out context, are you saying that photographers are the same mind-set as those mindless thugs?

EDIT! sorry, amend that to four people who are known to those who attend the WHitby PU meet, I forgot Barries Wife & Daughter

Sepia treatment!...I think it suits the day!
[IMG]http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/kenp6/IMGP5671.jpg[/IMG]

If people don't want to be photograph as Goth, they can be Goth on their own. When they're part of a public event, I'll take as many pictures of them as I want.

If you don't like it, you can stay home.

That's an absolutely terrible thing to say. 100% of the images seen on here are celebrating the diversity and the style of goth cultures (and associated subcultures). This is the diametric opposite to the subhuman attack on Sophie Lancaster and her boyfriend, which was apparently sparked by a hatred of 'difference'.

I'm sorry, but after reading more of the comments on some of your posts I feel forced to join in. Every photographer states that they always ask for permission and don't mind if people decline. Despite this, I have personally met countless that either still try to take a photo when I've said no or even exclaim in and aggressive way "Well. why are you dressed up then?!". For your information at this time I was dressed down and about town shopping.

I've been sat in the back of a cafe and had several people taking photographs of me and and my friends trying to enjoy lunch at the back.
Seeing the photo posted of the lady in cream on here and thinking it was taken without permission as she tried to do some shopping was bad enough without then reading some of the following comments on the subject. I know a friend of the lady in question who has stated that no permission was given to photograph her, she kept apologising to the shop owner for your behaviour, which apparently included swarming around the door and blocking other shoppers from entering.
While some of you say that you did have permission or she knew you were there so that's ok, she dresses up so she must want it is more offensive than I think you realise. You are basically saying that she was 'asking for it', which while only a little out of context is a phrase that has taken on a world of hate in recent times.
A little question, if she did give her permission and wanted to be photographed, why are there not any photo's posted of her from the front and specifically posing for such? Funny that, isn't it?

In answer to "If people don't want to be photograph as Goth, they can be Goth on their own" how about, if people don't want to be vilified for the kind of behaviour by people who seem to think they're part of the working paparazzi then you should go and take photo's on your own.

Also hearing word from this most recent wgw of groups of photographers on the old side of town blocking the shopping street as you often do but this time when asked to move so people could pass, it is a public area and right of way, to reply "I'm working here"

Picking on two possible factual inaccuracies about the graveyard and danger of a large piece of stone possibly breaking and falling on someone, when it all comes down to the Vicar of the church not wanting scantily clad teenage 'models' photographed there just shows that some of you really do not care about anyone else's thoughts or feelings on the matter, just so long as you can post a photo to make some of your friends jealous that you got the pervy image they were lusting after.

Each of you taking photographs is as tainted by the actions of every other person taking pictures of children draped over gravestones. Just like every one of us goths who go to whitby for a music festival and to see our friends seems to be painted in the same light as the ones who just dress up for the weekend and have jumped on the wgw bandwagon to further their dreams of modelling.

If you want the benefit of your hobby in getting beautiful looking artistic photo's then you need to man up and take some of the responsibilities that go with that. Continuing this kind of behaviour with impunity cannot go on for ever. Not all of you are capable of this kind of pack mentality, at least I hope not. Don't you think it's time you took a look at how people are acting within your own group and start to do something to make your image in this whole thing better?

I'm open to reasonable debate, but sadly I'm expecting abuse. Time will tell, the ball is in your court.

I've only been to Whitby for the festival once, but I can fully agree with what has been said about some photographers. (And not necessarily from this forum)

However, not all can be tarred with the same brush. I asked permission, even though, to begin with, I found this very embarrasing. When told no, I accepted this and moved on.
Some shots only work with surprise, so, I suppose, there are occasions where permission is not sought first.

Unfortunately, though, there is no law in this country preventing photos from being taken in a public place and, like it or not, at any festival people take photogrpahs. Are we any worse than those who do so surreptitiously with their mobile phones or compact cameras? I'd say that we, by being open about what we are doing, and, for the most part, seeking permissions first, are better than those who do it on the sly.


I have seen what can only be described as outrageous behaviour by some photographers. One, last year, tried to move a sleeping baby's head to get a better shot ( his parents are Steampunks and the child was in a backpack). That is unforgiveable. I, on the other hand spoke to the parents, asked permission and even ( heaven forfend! ) showed an interest in their outfits ( being a closet Steampunk )

So, like with Goths, Steampunks, Dieselypunks, Cyberpunks and all others who turn up at Whitby, 'togs can't all be tarred with the same brush.
(Hope you had a good time, anyway)

As someone who enjoys taking candids of people, but always careful not to show them in a compromising situation, or get in the way of people going about their business, or otherwise cause a nuisance, I am not very pleased to hear about these accounts of photographers' behaviour from 'the other side of the fence'.

I'm sure it's just the 'visible minority' of photographers, but there is a risk that the actions of an inconsiderate few are going to make life difficult for the rest of us who are a bit more tactful and aspire more towards Henri Cartier Bresson than the Papparazzi. Becuase taking photographs of people in a public place is perfectly acceptable, but hounding people and going after 'pretty ladies' isn't.

So thank you Whitby-Regular for making these points.

As P-Phile has said, it is nice to hear the other side of the coin, so thanks to those who have posted. I hope that, if you stick around, you'll see that, joking aside, we aren't a bunch of lechorous(sp?) old men, but do, genuinely have an interest in the artistry of the people involved at these events.
Yes, there are jokes about (in the main) the girls, but, cutting through all of that you'll see the comments regarding the nice people we meet. A world away from the hatred which led to Sophie's death. Some steampunks I have spoken to through the Brassgoggles forum have commented on how open minded we are here.
So, yes, maybe the 100th time you've had a zoom lens in your face you'll be a little cheesed off, but, if we take time to talk to you and you take time to talk to us, we'll all get on the better for it.
And those who can't be bothered to take the time, well, maybe I/you wouldn't want to talk to them anyway.

Father Ted, I think you missed one point I was trying to make. I agree that not all photographers should be tarred with the same brush, the same goes for for festival goers. Just because some of the people there on the street dress up to be photographed and love it, it doesn't mean that 'everybody' who goes there does. Time and time again various alternative communities have been brought to media attention through the actions of one or a hand full of disturbed people, it has been up to the people in that community to stand up and prove it's not everybody. What goes for us, should go for you too.

Pentaxophile, I'm glad my post was taken in the spirit in which it was meant. Sadly the efforts of a few of you are being tarnished by the visible majority, it might not seem like that to you as all you can see if the image you want and what you need to do to get it. For you and happily for a lot, it's simply asking for permission or not being intrusive if taking candid shots. I would hope that if you're not quick enough to capture the moment or are unlucky enough to be spotted, that you have the good grace to leave it as many don't. For others it means ignoring decorum and upsetting lots of people. Even photographers who have not pushed the issue when I've declined not to be photographed still walk away with a confused expression on their faces. I think that the actions of those has been detrimental to your ability to take some candid shots you might see, when in the past there weren't as many photographers people were less likely to notice a lone tog on a mission and even if they did looked more favourable on them. Now nearly everyone has a highly honed camera radar, whether this makes them pose or hide the whole day time at the wgw has become known for it.
I'm not saying by any stretch of the imagination that some of the 'models' are totally innocent, but when stopping for one simple photo to suddenly be surrounded by a crowd of people snapping and being very shouty and pushy, it has to give them a buzz like they're famous or beautiful. Or possibly too frightened by a large crowd to put an end to to it as seems to happen with some of the kids who dress up.
In the past, I have been asked and stopped for a photo on the street by one photographer. Upon seeing more people whip cameras out to join in, I've walked away so not to create and obstruction on what is a very small but busy shopping street.

If I want to put on my corset, big boots and makeup to make me feel good about myself in a dumbed down world that doesn't allow something different to grow and thrive, while at WGW it's because I was always surrounded by others of the same mind. I don't do it so a pushy group of seedy men can fill their memory cards with images. Does that make me a bad person?

You're more than welcome, let's hope that this can be sorted out before the goths stop going to whitby leaving just the photographers taking pictures of seagulls and each other.

edit- sorry F.Ted, I took a little too long with my reply and didn't see the one you sneaked in. I'm glad at least two of you are aware enough, as until now it was the aggressive posts from one of the members on here that stood out the most.

Not at all

And, I'd like to add that I'm glad you came back after your initial post. I've seen it elsewhere when people come on a forum with a complaint ( genuine or otherwise) make one and disappear.
If we can build up a rapport, then we'll all understand where we are coming from.

I realise that the people that I most want to address on this thread are the least likely to read it - their sense of entitlement meaning that they lose interest in a topic once anyone challenges them.

As my username suggests, I am a goth (a whitby regular for several years) and a professional photographer and educator. This topic addresses a number of interesting issues.

Primarily is the shocking sexism that is evidenced by attitudes such as "that picture needs cropping - the skirt needs to be shorter". If this type of chauvenistic behaviour is unacceptable to the majority of photographers in this community, then you must speak up and condemn in when it arises. The woman in cream is a friend of mine, and the next time she is out at whitby I shall be with her and will vigorously challenge anyone who seeks to take her photograph without asking her permission. I shall also be urging others to refuse to have their photograph taken, as this circus has become unfeasible.

Secondly, permission is required at these events, like it or not. You are not paparazzo seeking a story - these are people, just like you, enjoying their lesiuretime. To photograph them unawares, to gang up in groups around people, to start telling people what to do is unacceptable (and don't tell me you don't - I'm one of you remember, and have made my living as a portrait photographer for years so know exactly what photographers do in search of a picture).

Thirdly, the idea that because someone is dressed a certain way is indicative of them "asking for it" is an extremely tenuous defence. Do you agree women in short skirts are asking to be sexually assaulted? Because it sounds like the same logic - that a certain type of outfit befits a certain type of intention and invites a certain type of attention. There is no connection - people who like to dress up are people who like to dress up, that's it. They are not necessarily attention seekers, no matter how much you want them to be - the connection is not that straightforward, and you cannot make assumptions.

And lastly, don't start throwing around cheap swipes about people not being 'real goths'. You probably have no idea what real goths are anyway, and to me anyone who displays such bad behaviour as I have seen evidenced here is not a real photographer, but a sexist bully.