50 mm macro 2.8 and 100 mm wr macro over saturating


VividArt

Link Posted 02/02/2015 - 22:15
Here is a question I have wanted to ask someone for a while now.
I owned both of those lenses last year, purchased new. The question is do people notice that the color rendering of both of these lenses to be somewhat over pumped?
I spent quite a bit of time with the 50mm, every shot was over saturated. The camera was set to natural, mtf (tried all settings) and no other internal processing. Eventually I just got rid of it. The colors were just wrong. The same experience with the 100mm WR, colors way off. Is it me or have others had the same experience? I have had this experience with tamron lenses as well.

Thanks in advance,


JMD

redbusa99

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 00:30
as far as i know those settings, natural ,vibrant etc, etc are only applied to jpeg output so perhaps shoot in RAW and adjust to suit in post.
K3 II and the odd lens or 2

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50mpCMOS

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 01:44
Few questions about the over saturating...

1. Which Pentax camera body?
2. If K3, which variation?
3. What firmware update shows as being updated to?
4. Have the attempts at photographs been tried in a variety of lighting conditions; time of day, even flash?
5. Does it appear over saturated on just one single computer screen, on camera screen only, or even when printed?

McGregNi

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 05:31
I don't think a lens is capable of being ' oversaturated' by definition .... Nor unsaturated. That is the result of the camera sensor and processing really.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Last Edited by McGregNi on 03/02/2015 - 05:32

johnriley

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 07:32
It sounds like a processing problem to me, or a monitor problem. It's not a lens problem. The macro lenses deliver results like the rest of the range.
Best regards, John

McGregNi

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 07:59
VividArt wrote:
...

I spent quite a bit of time with the 50mm, every shot was over saturated. The camera was set to natural, mtf (tried all settings) and no other internal processing. Eventually I just got rid of it. The colors were just wrong. The same experience with the 100mm WR, colors way off. Is it me or have others had the same experience? I have had this experience with tamron lenses as well. JMD

I do find this strange .... are you sure you are looking at things from the right angle? You mention 2 Pentax lenses as well Tamron lenses as having the saturation and colour issues ... is it really likely to be the lenses that are the issue?

You mention settings ... MTF and 'tried all settings' . MTF in the program line will simply give you an optimal aperture setting in P mode ... this will not affect colours or saturation. What other settings have you tried? You mentioned a custom image preset of natural, which makes sense if you don't want too saturated. Can you confirm all the other custom sliders were at zero?

I'm assuming you were happy with all other aspects of the macro lens performance ? If so, I cannot understand why you would get rid of lenses as a solution .... did you consider reducing the saturation a little using the custom image saturation control? And have you checked some images on different monitors? You'll need to address all these issues before you can resolve any concerns about colours and saturation.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

VividArt

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 08:12
Hello,
Response for - John Riley
When you say processing, do you mean firmware?
I shoot raw...and add nothing in camera usually...
In camera they looked off, have four calibrated monitors, looked off there too. I have many other quality lenses to compare them to, these two lenses behaved differently. Tests were done in studio and in best possible outside lighting. Most of my rather large collection of lenses are limited's and one Da*.
I have tried a lot of lenses. I do have some experience, just saying...

It's tough asking this question, I am a pentaxian to the core, I am on a forum of serious pentax users, the last thing any of us wants to admit is that there might be bad versions of these lenses or camera bodies coming to us from pentax...
I read all the reviews, I know what these two lenses are supposed to perform like, was expecting that when I bought them new, but in my experience they didn't live up to the hype. I have seen picture examples that look great...

I did do each and every K5 update from version one. This might be the cause I read of issues being created with certain revisions,

Also here in Canada there are copies of the same lens that do behave differently. We see the Made in Japan versions of the same lenses, it's sad to say but I have personally seen quality control issues with all the same products that are reported on all the forums. I had two k5 bodies fail, and returned several primes until I was happy with the version they gave me in exchange.

I don't know, thought maybe you guys over there might have seen bad copies of lenses behave other than expected.

Thanks for taking the time to respond,

JMD

VividArt

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 08:20
McGregNi wrote:
VividArt wrote:
...

I spent quite a bit of time with the 50mm, every shot was over saturated. The camera was set to natural, mtf (tried all settings) and no other internal processing. Eventually I just got rid of it. The colors were just wrong. The same experience with the 100mm WR, colors way off. Is it me or have others had the same experience? I have had this experience with tamron lenses as well. JMD

I do find this strange .... are you sure you are looking at things from the right angle? You mention 2 Pentax lenses as well Tamron lenses as having the saturation and colour issues ... is it really likely to be the lenses that are the issue?

You mention settings ... MTF and 'tried all settings' . MTF in the program line will simply give you an optimal aperture setting in P mode ... this will not affect colours or saturation. What other settings have you tried? You mentioned a custom image preset of natural, which makes sense if you don't want too saturated. Can you confirm all the other custom sliders were at zero?

I'm assuming you were happy with all other aspects of the macro lens performance ? If so, I cannot understand why you would get rid of lenses as a solution .... did you consider reducing the saturation a little using the custom image saturation control? And have you checked some images on different monitors? You'll need to address all these issues before you can resolve any concerns about colours and saturation.

Kind sir,
I am an experienced photographer. Right angle?
Are you sure you are viewing things from the "right angle" ?
I find your tone offensive.

McGregNi

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 08:31
I could only go based on what you first wrote .... there was little information frankly apart from the reference to MTF and other settings. So what a few of us have said is logical really .... now you have said you shoot RAW , so in fact what relevance has the camera Natural Setting got, or indeed any camera custom settings? You mentioned 'Natural setting' so exploring the other custom controls (especially saturation is the obvious suggestion) .... but you're shooting RAW anyway! The colour problems could therefore come from the RAW processing side as well then.

I never intend to offend, only help .... if you really want quality advice then why not just work with us to narrow it down?
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

VividArt

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 08:52
Hello,
Thanks for your reply, I do appreciate that you are trying to help. I just kind of take offence to the beginner type questions, but ok you don't know me or what I know. Let's begin again.

What I meant to say is that I have tried everything. Raw, jpeg, certainly ensuring all the sliders are set in the green in which ever "processing mode", but don't use those.
What I do is shoot - look at the picture, is the picture what I am seeing? If not change a few basic settings like shutter speed, aperture or iso, or where I am metering from in the scene. I stay there until I get a shot that looks right on the camera, it always looks right later on the screens.

I do believe that the lenses I tried were flawed. I do see your logical view of work flow, the questions are good, but please lets get past the "user error" part and get on with it

Regards,


JMD
Last Edited by VividArt on 03/02/2015 - 08:52

VividArt

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 09:05
VividArt wrote:
Hello,
Thanks for your reply, I do appreciate that you are trying to help. I just kind of take offence to the beginner type questions, but ok you don't know me or what I know. Let's begin again.

What I meant to say is that I have tried everything. Raw, jpeg, certainly ensuring all the sliders are set in the green in which ever "processing mode", but don't use those.
What I do is shoot - look at the picture, is the picture what I am seeing? If not change a few basic settings like shutter speed, aperture or iso, or where I am metering from in the scene. I stay there until I get a shot that looks right on the camera, it always looks right later on the screens.

I do believe that the lenses I tried were flawed. I do see your logical view of work flow, the questions are good, but please lets get past the "user error" part and get on with it

Regards,


JMD

Also to answer the question about macro, unfortunately I was not happy with either. The 35 macro limited is fantastic, but I do feel I got a good copy.

JohnX

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 09:06
Could you please (a) post examples, complete with exif, and (b) tell us which lens(es) you are comparing the two problem lenses against? I appreciate that the problem might be peculiar to your lenses, but as I have both I'd be interested in shooting comparisons myself against one that you are happy with.

I can't say I've seen anything odd in the colour rendition of these lenses, but in fairness I've never had cause to look closely, but now I do.
Last Edited by JohnX on 03/02/2015 - 09:07

Darkmunk

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 09:33
The most I have ever seen with ancient through to the latest LTD lenses is small differences in rendering, contrast and saturation and invariably the ones I like are the punchier variants.
is it a subject matter thing?
I have had problems with colours blowing out on flower macros. It's quite common for it to go out of gammut or blow out the yellows or something and reducing the exposure has always fixed it.
Even in Raw, the display (depending on your software) can show the in-camera JPEG settings by default thus displaying any errors caused by camera settings being too vivid for the subject.
It's worth remembering that there will be newbies reading this who will glean a good deal of information from apparently patronisingly solutions
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McGregNi

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 09:35
VividArt wrote:


I do believe that the lenses I tried were flawed. I do see your logical view of work flow, the questions are good, but please lets get past the "user error" part and get on with it

Regards, JMD

That's fine, we can only go by what you write. I admit I am still puzzled though, because you said the problem was saturation, but you keep mentioning camera settings (MTF, aperture, ISO, shutter speed) that will not influence saturation to any significant degree (perhaps extreme high ISO might reduce saturation a little). Metering may have a little impact, for example, a little underexposure can increase saturation for certain subjects, and macro would fit into that category.

But in general none of these settings would have the effect on saturation you're worried about. That's the reason the questioning might seem aimed a bit low . In any case, I love saturation, so I doubt I would complain if my macros were too colourful
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

VividArt

Link Posted 03/02/2015 - 09:44
I will have to look for them, I have 6 terabytes of mess in my computer, more than a million photos...multiple copies of most of the good stuff. I find stuff all the time I just copied off of a sd card and never looked at...
Most of the testing was done mid summer in my back yard, it's a jungle, quite familiar with the subject matter, I planted most of it The indoor stuff was done with controlled studio lights or flash bouncing.
My complaints of these lenses were not really about color rendition in macro modes, it was within their normal focal lengths that I noticed it.
I still do have some examples somewhere. I will look but it may take a few days to find them. Not sure if I mentioned the 50 mm macro was my second new copy, the 100wr I had for two weeks.
The lenses I compared the two lenses in question are:
The three versions of 18-55 kit lenses, 16-45 f4, da14 2.8 , da15 f4, da35 macro 2.8, Da*50-135, the fa50 1.4, 18-135wr, da 70 2.4, sigma 90 macro, all sorts of old manual lenses. These are the lenses I use, I have tried pretty much the whole lineup, there is a shop here that rents them, good way to try stuff. also most shops here will allow you to return stuff within two weeks, I have tried just about all the stuff that is pentax mount. My conclusion is pentax has the best color rendition, when you get a good copy these days...It's funny, I knew a couple of interesting Russian guys that used to retro fit pentax glass for the nikon and canon guys, you should hear these guys talk about pentax - serious fans!
I have not tried the new art series from sigma. I hear there are quite good.

Thanks,


JMD
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