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Comment by froeschle posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 13/08/2013 - 12:49
Quote:
I have advocated a menu option, which would allow SDM to be disabled [...]
A bit more complicated than a menu option, but still a possibility:I have advocated a menu option, which would allow SDM to be disabled [...]
http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/208353-how-deactiv...
Comment by froeschle posted on DA* motor failure rate at 13/08/2013 - 11:42
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I think I must have made a mistake about the centre in Munich. There isn't one - it's HAmburg, Berlin or Vechelde
As I told you : https://www.pentaxuser.com/forum/topic/eye-watering-water-damage-repair-cost-for...#comm473872I think I must have made a mistake about the centre in Munich. There isn't one - it's HAmburg, Berlin or Vechelde
Quote:
[...] The corresponding partners are Rüdiger Maerz and TRITEC (see http://www.pentax.de/de/reparaturservice-kompakt.html ). [...] Please note that Rüdiger Maerz is also official partner of Canon CPS - where the policy probably is strictly the same. [...]
If you follow the remark "Ihre Meinung ist uns wichtig: www.canon-europe.com/SurveyA" still all options are available:[...] The corresponding partners are Rüdiger Maerz and TRITEC (see http://www.pentax.de/de/reparaturservice-kompakt.html ). [...] Please note that Rüdiger Maerz is also official partner of Canon CPS - where the policy probably is strictly the same. [...]
* Rüdiger Maerz GmbH - Berlin
* Rüdiger Maerz GmbH - Hamburg
* TRITEC GmbH - Vechelde
All telephone and e-mail numbers are given there:
http://www.pentax.de/de/reparaturservice-kompakt.html
Quote:
[...] but wouldn't tell me to which it was sent (helpful!). [...]
No, it is not (it is fishy) - but you got more than enough information for your enquiry:[...] but wouldn't tell me to which it was sent (helpful!). [...]
Quote:
ID #1217XX (upper right corner)
SV-1108-18XX (bar code)
Order number SG426N-008XX
Service/document number 4670XX
Customer number 1011XX
Serial number 39619XX + 52450XX (body + lens); box 046XX
(Last two digits replaced by XX)ID #1217XX (upper right corner)
SV-1108-18XX (bar code)
Order number SG426N-008XX
Service/document number 4670XX
Customer number 1011XX
Serial number 39619XX + 52450XX (body + lens); box 046XX
This data should be sufficient to identify the repair centre.
So, after contacting all three possibilities, you should know, where your camera really is.
Just compose an adequate cover letter / telephone call.
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If water damage was cited for the camera repair wouldn't the same apply to the lens?
The last sentence states that the damage was caused by wetness or water and therefore this cost breakdown was compiled. It seems that they did not (yet) discover any water damage of the lens.If water damage was cited for the camera repair wouldn't the same apply to the lens?
Quote:
Maybe the German speakers could help here. It looks like they are charging for [...]
CAMERA:Maybe the German speakers could help here. It looks like they are charging for [...]
Service tasks to be processed: Check & adjust camera, replace main board & wiring, update firmware, clean sensor (IIRC, the first sensor cleaning was/is free. The same might be true for the update. So, these formulations might be standard.).
LENS: (warranty)
Service tasks to be processed: Check & adjust lens
Quote:
however this cost also includes investigation
Normally, this is why you have to pay a fee if you want the camera back unrepaired.however this cost also includes investigation
PS: According to e.g.
https://www.shopauskunft.de/bewertung/AVIDES_Media_AG--S-12227.html
Avides seems not to have the best reputation concerning service, support and customer complaints.
Comment by froeschle posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 13/08/2013 - 11:01
Quote:
Unfortunately a translation for those who do0n't speak German may be needed, or at least a summary of what that thread is about please.
It is a similar story. lichtschachtuwe went to Notting Hill (UK). His combination (K-5II + DA 18-135) was used in rain and completely failed the following day. The camera then recovered and now seems to work without problems. He asks whether he should send the camera in for inspection.Unfortunately a translation for those who do0n't speak German may be needed, or at least a summary of what that thread is about please.
Some answers (excerpts):
- If the damage is due to rain, the seals were defect and it is a clear warranty case. Rain is no challenge for a Pentax.
- Due to the zoom, water may penetrate into the body.
- I had my K10D several times under salt water. My record is 3s and 1.5m - no damage. I washed it under the tap afterwards.
- Several years ago, on "Bird Munich", Pentax cameras stood three days in the rain before the tent - all other manufactureres presented their equipment in there.
- Something similar happened to my K-5 + WR lens (last autumn in Rome). I had the combination checked by the service after that. No obvious water damage was found - but could also not be excluded. So, I do not really trust the "weather-proofness". As photographing aquanaut, I am also aware of problems and thus really careful with my equipment.
- Temperature differences and air humidity might be an issue. Condensation may lead to malfunctions. I also had problems with my K-7 and 18-135. I put them wet into my rucksack. Under the sun it was like in a sauna in there. Only after three days all worked properly again.
- I found myself in the pool after some vodkas (together with the K10). Countless other wet and dirty occasions...
- Do not put the camera under the rain jacket. Sweating causes high temperatures and near 100% air humidity.
- Use silica gel.
- Never had problems with my K5/K7 in very wet conditions.
- Defect seals can be a problem.
- If my camera would suffer from a water damage, I would confront Pentax with their marketing promises - lifelong warranty! (There was some discussion about "lifelong".)
- I reminded them of the official warranty, which explicitely excludes water damage. Reliable watertightness might even be impossible!
- Zackspeed sells cameras in Berlin. He was asked how manufacturers react. He was a bit reluctant but noted that he has seen many cameras from the inside. I then directly asked whether he knows of a single case, where water damage has been repaired upon warranty (and not on goodwill). He knew of two dedicated under-water cameras (1 Olympus, 1 Pentax). I then specified on DSLRs only. The reply: Dust from the displays of several K10 cameras was removed, only half of the repair price of a K5 was taken (on goodwill). So the real answer seems to be: No.
BTW, I also mentioned this thread in dfn. They were a bit sceptical as e.g. no one knows of an official Pentax service in Munich. Some of them would be highly interested in an address, as they live there or close-by.
Comment by froeschle posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 12/08/2013 - 09:42
Comment by froeschle posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 09/08/2013 - 23:43
Hi George Lazarette,
I agree with most of your points. However, what is the advantage of WR then at all?
Furthermore, what is your opinion about official promotional videos like these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_-RAzBjakk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNh3wLJydAI
I agree with most of your points. However, what is the advantage of WR then at all?
Furthermore, what is your opinion about official promotional videos like these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_-RAzBjakk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNh3wLJydAI
Comment by froeschle posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 08/08/2013 - 21:09
Hi Evel79,
in Germany, the repair service has been "outsourced" from Pentax under Hoya.
The corresponding partners are Rüdiger Maerz and TRITEC (see http://www.pentax.de/de/reparaturservice-kompakt.html ).
Initially, repair and response was criticised very much in comparison to the previous direct services.
Recently, at least, the reputation is quite good.
However, if you want to repair Pentax gear without warranty, cheaper and maybe better options do exist.
The choices given by the repair centre are quite common (at least in Germany):
a) pay for repair;
b) get the product back with a fee;
c) dispose the product free of charge.
Especially, if the costs are too high, c) sometimes really is an option ("wirtschaftlicher Totalschaden").
From your description, I very much doubt that there has been a direct contact with Pentax before your enquiry.
As (nearly) all manufacturers exclude water damage from their warranty, their reply rather seems to be the standard message for me.
Please note that Rüdiger Maerz is also official partner of Canon CPS - where the policy probably is strictly the same.
This is understandable, as the companies do not know what there customers have been doing with their cameras.
It might be difficult to distinguish between reasons of failure (e.g. damage by rain or by submersion under water).
This is probably the reason why they reverse the burden of proof.
Also, this is why I asked for a witness.
If you want to achieve something, you probably should contact Pentax Germany directly!
Tell them the problem, the repair centre and the repair number.
In the moment, however, many people are on holiday.
So, if e.g. the leading technician is not available for examination, things might take some time.
This could also be the reason why the response to your question has not arrived yet.
Nonetheless, to repeat again:
A "weather-resistant" or "weatherproof" camera does not prohibit damage by water - it just makes the latter less likely to occur.
Showing official promotional videos where water is poured over cameras could imply that this is an acceptable procedure.
However, knowing some details about sealings, it is quite clear that the failure rate will be above 0%.
It probably will be lower for "weather-resistant" cameras than for normal ones, but water-damage still is possible.
So, a lesson for others might be: Do not rely exclusively on the sealings of your camera.
In the border case, careless handling of equipment might even undercut the WR advantage - a well-protected camera might be less error-prone.
Regards,
froeschle
PS:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garantie
in Germany, the repair service has been "outsourced" from Pentax under Hoya.
The corresponding partners are Rüdiger Maerz and TRITEC (see http://www.pentax.de/de/reparaturservice-kompakt.html ).
Initially, repair and response was criticised very much in comparison to the previous direct services.
Recently, at least, the reputation is quite good.
However, if you want to repair Pentax gear without warranty, cheaper and maybe better options do exist.
The choices given by the repair centre are quite common (at least in Germany):
a) pay for repair;
b) get the product back with a fee;
c) dispose the product free of charge.
Especially, if the costs are too high, c) sometimes really is an option ("wirtschaftlicher Totalschaden").
From your description, I very much doubt that there has been a direct contact with Pentax before your enquiry.
As (nearly) all manufacturers exclude water damage from their warranty, their reply rather seems to be the standard message for me.
Please note that Rüdiger Maerz is also official partner of Canon CPS - where the policy probably is strictly the same.
This is understandable, as the companies do not know what there customers have been doing with their cameras.
It might be difficult to distinguish between reasons of failure (e.g. damage by rain or by submersion under water).
This is probably the reason why they reverse the burden of proof.
Also, this is why I asked for a witness.
If you want to achieve something, you probably should contact Pentax Germany directly!
Tell them the problem, the repair centre and the repair number.
In the moment, however, many people are on holiday.
So, if e.g. the leading technician is not available for examination, things might take some time.
This could also be the reason why the response to your question has not arrived yet.
Quote:
The point of this thread was to vent a little, but mostly to raise an issue that might affect others on a forum I found friendly and informative in the past. I can't do this on every forum, unfortunately.
It is quite natural that one is disappointed about damaged gear - especially if the repair cost is eye-watering .The point of this thread was to vent a little, but mostly to raise an issue that might affect others on a forum I found friendly and informative in the past. I can't do this on every forum, unfortunately.
Nonetheless, to repeat again:
A "weather-resistant" or "weatherproof" camera does not prohibit damage by water - it just makes the latter less likely to occur.
Quote:
But this is more of an issue of misleading advertising and Pentax's response.
I fully agree with that.But this is more of an issue of misleading advertising and Pentax's response.
Showing official promotional videos where water is poured over cameras could imply that this is an acceptable procedure.
However, knowing some details about sealings, it is quite clear that the failure rate will be above 0%.
It probably will be lower for "weather-resistant" cameras than for normal ones, but water-damage still is possible.
So, a lesson for others might be: Do not rely exclusively on the sealings of your camera.
In the border case, careless handling of equipment might even undercut the WR advantage - a well-protected camera might be less error-prone.
Regards,
froeschle
PS:
Quote:
Germany is great that out gives 2 years warranty on everything.
Be aware of the differences between "Garantie" and "Gewährleistung".Germany is great that out gives 2 years warranty on everything.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garantie
Quote:
Garantie: ein zwischen Käufer und einem Garantiegeber abgeschlossener Vertrag, der dem Käufer eine unbedingte Schadensersatzleistung zusichert.
Gewährleistung: definiert eine zeitlich befristete Nachbesserungsverpflichtung ausschließlich für Mängel, die zum Zeitpunkt des Verkaufs bereits bestanden.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gew%C3%A4hrleistungGarantie: ein zwischen Käufer und einem Garantiegeber abgeschlossener Vertrag, der dem Käufer eine unbedingte Schadensersatzleistung zusichert.
Gewährleistung: definiert eine zeitlich befristete Nachbesserungsverpflichtung ausschließlich für Mängel, die zum Zeitpunkt des Verkaufs bereits bestanden.
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Mindeststandards für die Gewährleistung beim gewerblichen Verkauf an private Endverbraucher. Insbesondere darf die Verjährungsfrist zwei Jahre ab Lieferung nicht unterschreiten und innerhalb der ersten sechs Monate muss die Beweislast in der Regel beim Verkäufer liegen. Die Gewährleistungsansprüche bestehen gegenüber dem Verkäufer, nicht dem Hersteller der Ware.
Mindeststandards für die Gewährleistung beim gewerblichen Verkauf an private Endverbraucher. Insbesondere darf die Verjährungsfrist zwei Jahre ab Lieferung nicht unterschreiten und innerhalb der ersten sechs Monate muss die Beweislast in der Regel beim Verkäufer liegen. Die Gewährleistungsansprüche bestehen gegenüber dem Verkäufer, nicht dem Hersteller der Ware.
Comment by froeschle posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 08/08/2013 - 11:50
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In what way are you astonished?
It might be questionable whether or not color moiré is a problem for most pictures. However, it also might be disputable whether the absence of an AA filter really is desirable (an advantage). But this is not my point.In what way are you astonished?
Knowing you as an expert and experienced "tester", I was just surprised by the absoluteness of this statement
Quote:
using the GR, which has the same size sensor and also no AA filter, there has been no sign at all of moire
especially as e.g. dpreview finds "extensive" moiré.using the GR, which has the same size sensor and also no AA filter, there has been no sign at all of moire
Comment by froeschle posted on K5 2S moire-Just for the record at 07/08/2013 - 16:18
Quote:
Incidentally, using the GR, which has the same size sensor and also no AA filter, there has been no sign at all of moire.
I am a bit astonished to read this.Incidentally, using the GR, which has the same size sensor and also no AA filter, there has been no sign at all of moire.
See e.g. http://www.dpreview.com/previews/ricoh-gr/9 - "Ricoh GR - F2.8, 100% center crop"
(http://4.static.img-dpreview.com/previews/ricoh-gr/samples/testscene/RicohGR-F28...
Quote:
both cameras are exhibiting extensive moiré as a result of their sharp lenses and lack of anti-aliasing filters
both cameras are exhibiting extensive moiré as a result of their sharp lenses and lack of anti-aliasing filters
Comment by froeschle posted on K5 2S moire-Just for the record at 07/08/2013 - 15:46
Quote:
Not comparing these guys, but just a thought. Pros with Pro cameras (no doubt a good few waterproof combos in there), the majority wrapping up their cameras anyway. Paranoia, or a distrust of the claims of Canon et al.?
I think it is not unwise to protect expensive gear, especially if you earn your living with it (see also PS below).Not comparing these guys, but just a thought. Pros with Pro cameras (no doubt a good few waterproof combos in there), the majority wrapping up their cameras anyway. Paranoia, or a distrust of the claims of Canon et al.?
Quote:
Oh and froeschle you mention comparing waterproof and weather-resistant. But "weatherproof" as Pentax claims in the promo video I linked - certainly implies something more than "resistant". Taking all marketing with a pinch of salt, this could be very misleading.
It depends on the weather and I am certainly also sceptical about it (which becomes obvious if you have read the content of the above links). Especially something like this Oh and froeschle you mention comparing waterproof and weather-resistant. But "weatherproof" as Pentax claims in the promo video I linked - certainly implies something more than "resistant". Taking all marketing with a pinch of salt, this could be very misleading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_-RAzBjakk
or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNh3wLJydAI
is imho fully out of question/warranty. If you would officially ask Pentax they probably would warn you to do this. There is a chance that nothing is damaged ... but there is also the risk of total failure (even if this might be below 5%, you can calculate how much money a warranty like this would cost Pentax).
To cite Lothman again: http://www.dslr-forum.de/showpost.php?p=9990173&postcount=137
An official reaction where a camera was shown in a forum submerged:
Quote:
Pentax hat auch schon mitgelesen und rät dringend davon ab die Kamera einzutauchen !!!
Im Notfall kann es klappen,aber drauf verlassen lieber nicht.
Pentax hat auch schon mitgelesen und rät dringend davon ab die Kamera einzutauchen !!!
Im Notfall kann es klappen,aber drauf verlassen lieber nicht.
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I have a water-resistant and a waterproof jacket. I expect to stay dry with a waterproof jacket. I expect to be protected as I run for the train in a water-reistant one, I don't expect to stay dry if I have to stand an hour in pouring rain.
Do you also own a water resistant watch?I have a water-resistant and a waterproof jacket. I expect to stay dry with a waterproof jacket. I expect to be protected as I run for the train in a water-reistant one, I don't expect to stay dry if I have to stand an hour in pouring rain.
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RATING: Water Resistant 3 ATM or 30 m
SUITABILITY: Suitable for everyday use. Splash/rain resistant. NOT suitable for showering, bathing, swimming, snorkelling, water related work and fishing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Resistant_markRATING: Water Resistant 3 ATM or 30 m
SUITABILITY: Suitable for everyday use. Splash/rain resistant. NOT suitable for showering, bathing, swimming, snorkelling, water related work and fishing.
To repeat: A water resistant watch (for 3 ATM or 30 m depth) is not suitable for showering or swimming!
Quote:
Under English law there's such a thing as misrepresentation, and should you rely upon a misrepresentation you have quite a strong case (assuming it's not seen as marketing "puff" - best beer in the world etc.) I think Pentax is sailing dangerously close to the wind here.
English case law is also littered with cases where the warranty excludes something the purchaser couldn't have known before opening the packaging and reading the warranty contained within. Generally it has been found to be void.
Not sure in Germany - but they are also very protective of consumers too. Difference is access to the courts as mentioned above. You can probably confirm this, but insurance is provided for everything here, including legal insurance. If you have that, great you can get a lawyer on it. If not, it's your own costs. Hence no small claims - since you "should" have legal insurance...Just different, but leaves a lot of people out in the cold.
UK law is not applicable if you have bought the camera in Germany.Under English law there's such a thing as misrepresentation, and should you rely upon a misrepresentation you have quite a strong case (assuming it's not seen as marketing "puff" - best beer in the world etc.) I think Pentax is sailing dangerously close to the wind here.
English case law is also littered with cases where the warranty excludes something the purchaser couldn't have known before opening the packaging and reading the warranty contained within. Generally it has been found to be void.
Not sure in Germany - but they are also very protective of consumers too. Difference is access to the courts as mentioned above. You can probably confirm this, but insurance is provided for everything here, including legal insurance. If you have that, great you can get a lawyer on it. If not, it's your own costs. Hence no small claims - since you "should" have legal insurance...Just different, but leaves a lot of people out in the cold.
I have not yet seen a single case, where a warranty has been granted after water damage of a camera (irrespective of country).
Probably, some have been repaired on goodwill ("Kulanz").
Normally, the manufacturers reverse the burden of proof ("Beweislastumkehr").
It would help if you would have a witness that confirms that the defect occured under "normal" working conditions.
As your problem seems to be with German Pentax repair centers, you might join dfn and state your problem there.
It is a nice community, which could be of help.
There are also several members with close connections to Pentax Germany/Europe.
However, I do not really see a chance that you get a free repair.
On the other hand, this problem should be known to other customers.
A "weather-resistant" or "weatherproof" camera does not prohibit damage by water - it just makes the latter less likely to occur.
Unfortunately, your equipment was affected.
PS: Antarctica 2009: What Worked – What Didn't
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/antarctica-2009-worked.shtml
(25% failure rate of Canon 5DMk2's)
Comment by froeschle posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 07/08/2013 - 13:09
There is some hope (translation):
"I had the same problems last year (K5 + WR 50-200).
The camera was sent to Maerz and came back unrepaired as write-off: Water damage of the electronics.
I then directly contacted Pentax (Hamburg) and asked about the meaning of "sealed".
They wanted to inspect the camera themselves. So, I sent it to them. Two weeks later I got a replacement camera from "repair stock" (shutter count: 7000)."