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Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 06/08/2013 - 19:39
Apologies for terrible smartphone related spelling.
Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 06/08/2013 - 09:58
Yes, I do likewise. In this case I took the lens off and fully extended it, leaving it in a nice dry place for a day.
It
But under field conditions, using it at various focal lengths, it is always being zoomed in and out. To wipe it off before every shot is not going to happien realistically, so the risk is never 100% gone.
Retracting the lens if slightly damp you here the sound of air pushing past water - the air in the lens has to go somewhere when the volume decreases! It was at this point I tOok off the lens before extending to dry off again - for fear of water being somehow sucked in.
bearing in mind johns info on the lens, although the lens may remain at risk of water getting in the barrel, surely the seals should prevent any moisture getting to the inner workings of the camera itself. Theoretically, applying a modicum of scepticism as to the specs (my modicum is increasing somewhat).
It
But under field conditions, using it at various focal lengths, it is always being zoomed in and out. To wipe it off before every shot is not going to happien realistically, so the risk is never 100% gone.
Retracting the lens if slightly damp you here the sound of air pushing past water - the air in the lens has to go somewhere when the volume decreases! It was at this point I tOok off the lens before extending to dry off again - for fear of water being somehow sucked in.
bearing in mind johns info on the lens, although the lens may remain at risk of water getting in the barrel, surely the seals should prevent any moisture getting to the inner workings of the camera itself. Theoretically, applying a modicum of scepticism as to the specs (my modicum is increasing somewhat).
Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 06/08/2013 - 09:57
I suppose one consideration should be labour costs in manufacturing vs repair.
Camera made in Vietnam by factory workers. Repeairs done by German (or wherever) engineers.
I would be willing to bet that the labour costs of manufacturing one unit are nearly the same as one hour's labour of a European engineer.
Not defending their quotation, but food for thought when we buy all our electrical goods from markets with low labour costs.
They are considering my counter-offer. I wouldn't eactly call what I wrote to them a counter-offer, but we'll anyway...
Camera made in Vietnam by factory workers. Repeairs done by German (or wherever) engineers.
I would be willing to bet that the labour costs of manufacturing one unit are nearly the same as one hour's labour of a European engineer.
Not defending their quotation, but food for thought when we buy all our electrical goods from markets with low labour costs.
They are considering my counter-offer. I wouldn't eactly call what I wrote to them a counter-offer, but we'll anyway...
Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 05/08/2013 - 16:27
Proof is the key here. Prove you didn't use it with a non-wr lens or drop it in a puddle etc.
Its not as easy as with a fully sealed unit.
Ok they have to prove their case too, but it's on the balance of probabilities here - more likely than not. So depends on the luck of the draw a bit with the courts. Speaking as a lawyer (just not in Germany sadly!).
Germany actually gives longer warranties as standard, but with no real equivalent to the small claims court, unless you stand to lose or have least thousands, it's a gamble with lawyers fees.
Even if consumer law were the same across all countries, agree with john it's not (minimum standards though), access to the law is the crux.
But, to digress...
Its not as easy as with a fully sealed unit.
Ok they have to prove their case too, but it's on the balance of probabilities here - more likely than not. So depends on the luck of the draw a bit with the courts. Speaking as a lawyer (just not in Germany sadly!).
Germany actually gives longer warranties as standard, but with no real equivalent to the small claims court, unless you stand to lose or have least thousands, it's a gamble with lawyers fees.
Even if consumer law were the same across all countries, agree with john it's not (minimum standards though), access to the law is the crux.
But, to digress...
Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 04/08/2013 - 23:41
Yes point taken Opethian.
I would disagree slightly. though. It's not only an issue of customer service if the warranty does indeed exclude water-damage without exception, especially given the direction of the advertising and product descriptions.
Legally, they could fall back on this whenever they want, regardless of product description. Although there is a history of legal arguments about products where the owner doesn't get to see the warranty until they have bought it - I might look twice as a first time buyer if I have a "-proof" camera that will have its warranty voided if actually used in those conditions.
I would disagree slightly. though. It's not only an issue of customer service if the warranty does indeed exclude water-damage without exception, especially given the direction of the advertising and product descriptions.
Legally, they could fall back on this whenever they want, regardless of product description. Although there is a history of legal arguments about products where the owner doesn't get to see the warranty until they have bought it - I might look twice as a first time buyer if I have a "-proof" camera that will have its warranty voided if actually used in those conditions.
Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 04/08/2013 - 22:03
Yep, except Pentax advertises it as "weatherproof" in their promo here:
link
1 min, 11 sec.
Ok, yes, what is weatherproof? But the implication and descriptions is clearly of a high level of exposure, and there is mention in the documentation of extreme weather. The manual actually tells you to dry it after it has been in the rain - which surely implies use in the rain is acceptable (but be sensible afterwards).
Of course no-one would submerge the thing, but use in rain is reasonable given Pentax's indications. If it is used every day in the rain, but dried after each time, that would seem to me to be within the advertised abilities plus following Pentax's own advice.
Now in my case, we are talking about the camera being cold but not below freezing for 2 weeks without really warming up, and being used in rainy conditions every other day and dried each time after use, but spending most of the time in a bag in between shots.
It is strange that the description of the weatherproofing is expanded on much more in the German product description, so for you all I have quickly translated it. I even noticed the smaller description I gave in an earlier post above is more detailed in German. So a quick translation from both parts is below. You have to accept my translation, but it is also important to consider what is implied:
"The K-5 is based on a unique chasis with 77 body seals to protect against water splashes, moisture, dirt, dust, ice, snow and temperatures down to minus 10 ° C."
"77 body seals against moisture and dust. Protection against environmental influences is one of the most important factors of an electronic camera. Rain or high humidity can lead to corrosion in the camera body. The photographer only notices this much later when the repairshop is asking for high prices or repair is no longer possible.
Visits to the beach can effect it much quicker. In modern microtechnology, a grain of sand is sufficient to allow the tiny motors, and even smaller gear wheels lock and the camera will often be unusable. With the comprehensive protection program for K-5, this camera can still take pictures (even in winter to -10 ° C) when other photographers have their to wrap up their camera."
German below if interested:
Die K-5 basiert auf dem einzigartigen Chassis mit 77 Gehäuse-Dichtungen zum Schutz vor Spritzwasser, Feuchtigkeit, Schmutz, Staub, Eis, Schnee und Temperaturen bis minus 10°C.
77 Gehäusedichtungen gegen Feuchtigkeit und Staub. Schutz vor Umwelteinflüssen ist eine der wichtigsten Details bei einer elektronischen Kamera. Regen oder hohe Luftfeuchtigkeit führen zu Korrosion im Kameragehäuse. Der Fotograf merkt dies aber erst sehr viel später, wenn die Werkstatt hohe Reparaturpreise verlangt oder eine Reparatur nicht mehr möglich ist.
Sehr viel schneller macht sich der Aufenthalt am Strand bemerkbar. Bei moderner Mikrotechnologie reicht ein Sandkorn aus, damit die winzigen Motoren, und die noch kleineren Zahnräder blockieren und die Kamera oft unbrauchbar wird. Mit dem umfangreichen Schutzprogramm für die K-5, kann diese Kamera noch fotografieren (im Winter sogar bis -10°C), wenn andere Fotografen ihre Kamera besser verpackt lassen.
link
1 min, 11 sec.
Ok, yes, what is weatherproof? But the implication and descriptions is clearly of a high level of exposure, and there is mention in the documentation of extreme weather. The manual actually tells you to dry it after it has been in the rain - which surely implies use in the rain is acceptable (but be sensible afterwards).
Of course no-one would submerge the thing, but use in rain is reasonable given Pentax's indications. If it is used every day in the rain, but dried after each time, that would seem to me to be within the advertised abilities plus following Pentax's own advice.
Now in my case, we are talking about the camera being cold but not below freezing for 2 weeks without really warming up, and being used in rainy conditions every other day and dried each time after use, but spending most of the time in a bag in between shots.
It is strange that the description of the weatherproofing is expanded on much more in the German product description, so for you all I have quickly translated it. I even noticed the smaller description I gave in an earlier post above is more detailed in German. So a quick translation from both parts is below. You have to accept my translation, but it is also important to consider what is implied:
"The K-5 is based on a unique chasis with 77 body seals to protect against water splashes, moisture, dirt, dust, ice, snow and temperatures down to minus 10 ° C."
"77 body seals against moisture and dust. Protection against environmental influences is one of the most important factors of an electronic camera. Rain or high humidity can lead to corrosion in the camera body. The photographer only notices this much later when the repairshop is asking for high prices or repair is no longer possible.
Visits to the beach can effect it much quicker. In modern microtechnology, a grain of sand is sufficient to allow the tiny motors, and even smaller gear wheels lock and the camera will often be unusable. With the comprehensive protection program for K-5, this camera can still take pictures (even in winter to -10 ° C) when other photographers have their to wrap up their camera."
German below if interested:
Die K-5 basiert auf dem einzigartigen Chassis mit 77 Gehäuse-Dichtungen zum Schutz vor Spritzwasser, Feuchtigkeit, Schmutz, Staub, Eis, Schnee und Temperaturen bis minus 10°C.
77 Gehäusedichtungen gegen Feuchtigkeit und Staub. Schutz vor Umwelteinflüssen ist eine der wichtigsten Details bei einer elektronischen Kamera. Regen oder hohe Luftfeuchtigkeit führen zu Korrosion im Kameragehäuse. Der Fotograf merkt dies aber erst sehr viel später, wenn die Werkstatt hohe Reparaturpreise verlangt oder eine Reparatur nicht mehr möglich ist.
Sehr viel schneller macht sich der Aufenthalt am Strand bemerkbar. Bei moderner Mikrotechnologie reicht ein Sandkorn aus, damit die winzigen Motoren, und die noch kleineren Zahnräder blockieren und die Kamera oft unbrauchbar wird. Mit dem umfangreichen Schutzprogramm für die K-5, kann diese Kamera noch fotografieren (im Winter sogar bis -10°C), wenn andere Fotografen ihre Kamera besser verpackt lassen.
Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 04/08/2013 - 21:50
Hi Giofi,
Yes, I plan to. Their response doesn't say they have a quote from the service centre, but from the "manufacturer". So, Pentax.
Actually the official Pentax repair centre is where I live, Munich. Not sure how kindly they will take to people turning up and knocking on their door, but tempted. ALthough I also can@t exactly document that for customer service either.
Just need a few more facts first - including job number.
p.s. Customer Service is generally an oxymoron in Germany. The customer is ALWAYS wrong / to blame / should apologise for daring to ask for help. This may also be part of the problem. Everything is so perfect, if something is wrong it's like the universe has collapsed - unexplainable. cultural thing
Yes, I plan to. Their response doesn't say they have a quote from the service centre, but from the "manufacturer". So, Pentax.
Actually the official Pentax repair centre is where I live, Munich. Not sure how kindly they will take to people turning up and knocking on their door, but tempted. ALthough I also can@t exactly document that for customer service either.
Just need a few more facts first - including job number.
p.s. Customer Service is generally an oxymoron in Germany. The customer is ALWAYS wrong / to blame / should apologise for daring to ask for help. This may also be part of the problem. Everything is so perfect, if something is wrong it's like the universe has collapsed - unexplainable. cultural thing
Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 04/08/2013 - 19:22
Pentax service centre via the seller. The seller has actually been quick and communicative and paid for the postage needed.
I actually just copy pasted the following to them from the product description, making exactly that argument. That if water damage has occured itself may be the defect - mentioning seals.
"The K-5 is exceptionally solid and durable, with a body of sturdy yet lightweight magnesium alloy, and a chassis of highly-rigid stainless steel. Thanks to the inclusion of 77 special seals, it also boasts a dustproof, weather-resistant and cold-resistant (-10°C) construction, assuring reliable operation even under harsh environment."
Actually - since this was bought in germany (where I live), the German pentax website goes even further to describe how rain and dust can affect other cameras - but with the K5 you don't need to worry!
I copy pasted that too.
Their answer + translation:
wir haben heute vom Hersteller einen Kostenvoranschlag über 647,40 Euro für Ihr Gerät erhalten. Der Fehler fällt nicht unter die Hersteller-Garantie da er aufgrund eines Wasserschadens entstanden ist.
We received a quotation from the manufacturer for 647,40 Euros for your device. The problem isn't covered by the warranty as it is as a result of water-damage.
I have naturally asked for a copy of their report. Maybe I was too open about the conditions that it was in use in wet conditions and they have jumped on that. But with such a precise quote, they must have looked at it!
I really don@t want to go down the formal complaints / negative facebook etc. exposure route...
I actually just copy pasted the following to them from the product description, making exactly that argument. That if water damage has occured itself may be the defect - mentioning seals.
"The K-5 is exceptionally solid and durable, with a body of sturdy yet lightweight magnesium alloy, and a chassis of highly-rigid stainless steel. Thanks to the inclusion of 77 special seals, it also boasts a dustproof, weather-resistant and cold-resistant (-10°C) construction, assuring reliable operation even under harsh environment."
Actually - since this was bought in germany (where I live), the German pentax website goes even further to describe how rain and dust can affect other cameras - but with the K5 you don't need to worry!
I copy pasted that too.
Their answer + translation:
wir haben heute vom Hersteller einen Kostenvoranschlag über 647,40 Euro für Ihr Gerät erhalten. Der Fehler fällt nicht unter die Hersteller-Garantie da er aufgrund eines Wasserschadens entstanden ist.
We received a quotation from the manufacturer for 647,40 Euros for your device. The problem isn't covered by the warranty as it is as a result of water-damage.
I have naturally asked for a copy of their report. Maybe I was too open about the conditions that it was in use in wet conditions and they have jumped on that. But with such a precise quote, they must have looked at it!
I really don@t want to go down the formal complaints / negative facebook etc. exposure route...
Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 04/08/2013 - 19:06
Agreed - the worst part was being asked to stump up (with bank details given) without any explanation other than as it's water-damage, it's not covered.
My main concerns generally are:
1) How can they possibly charge more than for a brand new camera, regardless of what needs doing
2) How much confidence can I be expected to have should I repair, buy an outgoing K5, or upgrade, knowing full well that my warranty isn't valid for arguably one of the camera's biggest USPs
As it seems to be back to good health (although not to the repair centre), I shall continue with it. WInter will be the test for me.
I have been given 10 days to decide what to do - will see what they reveal to me before my time is up
My main concerns generally are:
1) How can they possibly charge more than for a brand new camera, regardless of what needs doing
2) How much confidence can I be expected to have should I repair, buy an outgoing K5, or upgrade, knowing full well that my warranty isn't valid for arguably one of the camera's biggest USPs
As it seems to be back to good health (although not to the repair centre), I shall continue with it. WInter will be the test for me.
I have been given 10 days to decide what to do - will see what they reveal to me before my time is up
Comment by Evel79 posted on eye-watering water-damage repair cost for K5+18-135mm at 04/08/2013 - 17:50
Not comparing these guys, but just a thought. Pros with Pro cameras (no doubt a good few waterproof combos in there), the majority wrapping up their cameras anyway. Paranoia, or a distrust of the claims of Canon et al.? I believe I had the K5 + 18-135 combo for this in the rain again - no problems.
Oh and froeschle you mention comparing waterproof and weather-resistant. But "weatherproof" as Pentax claims in the promo video I linked - certainly implies something more than "resistant". Taking all marketing with a pinch of salt, this could be very misleading.
I have a water-resistant and a waterproof jacket. I expect to stay dry with a waterproof jacket. I expect to be protected as I run for the train in a water-reistant one, I don't expect to stay dry if I have to stand an hour in pouring rain.
Under English law there's such a thing as misrepresentation, and should you rely upon a misrepresentation you have quite a strong case (assuming it's not seen as marketing "puff" - best beer in the world etc.) I think Pentax is sailing dangerously close to the wind here.
English case law is also littered with cases where the warranty excludes something the purchaser couldn't have known before opening the packaging and reading the warranty contained within. Generally it has been found to be void.
Not sure in Germany - but they are also very protective of consumers too. Difference is access to the courts as mentioned above. You can probably confirm this, but insurance is provided for everything here, including legal insurance. If you have that, great you can get a lawyer on it. If not, it's your own costs. Hence no small claims - since you "should" have legal insurance...Just different, but leaves a lot of people out in the cold.