Very confused..


ikillrocknroll

Link Posted 23/02/2008 - 11:03
I'm looking to buy a flash, and I've read that both the 360FGZ and the 540FGZ are wireless.. but then on the forums, read that you need a slave to set of the 360, I havent seen much about the 540.

Is there any way you can just hold the flash wireless (to get a different angle for the flash) or do you have to have a slave Or would I need to buy the hot shoe adapter and cord (around 60 )
http://www.behance.net/robbranigan
K20D, DA18-55II, FA50 1.4, DA10-17
To buy: Metz 58 AF-1, DA*50-135, DA12-24, DA100M

George Lazarette

Link Posted 23/02/2008 - 11:59
Wireless flashes work by sending bursts of light from the camera's own built-in flash unit, or a suitable flashgun mounted on the camera, to a remote flashgun.

Not all cameras can do this with their built-in flash (only the *ist D, K10D, and perhaps some others). You need to have wireless-compatible flashguns (360, 540, etc) as well.

So if your camera is compatible, you just need a wirelss flashgun. If it's not, you need two wireless flashguns, or cables (which is a whole subject in itself).

G
Keywords: Charming, polite, and generally agreeable.

ikillrocknroll

Link Posted 23/02/2008 - 13:25
Right
So basically, I cant use it wireless on my K100D without two of them, and the way I would want to use it wireless (ie, hold it to the left of me, or something), it wouldnt be triggered anyway, so I would need the cable and hotshoe adapter.
http://www.behance.net/robbranigan
K20D, DA18-55II, FA50 1.4, DA10-17
To buy: Metz 58 AF-1, DA*50-135, DA12-24, DA100M

George Lazarette

Link Posted 23/02/2008 - 14:30
ikillrocknroll wrote:
Right
So basically, I cant use it wireless on my K100D without two of them, and the way I would want to use it wireless (ie, hold it to the left of me, or something), it wouldnt be triggered anyway, so I would need the cable and hotshoe adapter.

Wireless flash is only useful in a dynamic situation, where the lighting conditions are changing (because the subject is not stuck in one place). If the subject is stationary, then manual is the way to go, with a small triggering flash on camera, and two or more slaves with sensors.

G
Keywords: Charming, polite, and generally agreeable.

terje-l

Link Posted 23/02/2008 - 22:03
The AF-360FGZ does work as a slave flash, triggered by the light from the on-camera flash. So you can hold it in your hand to get some side light.

Set the on-off switch to the centre position, marked wireless, and set the wireless mode switch to S (slave). The flash will be in the Auto mode, and you can modify both the F and ISO settings to control the light output.

With the proper adjustments, the 360 will act as your main light, with fill-in from the pop-up flash.

Obviously, a few test shots may be required, but that is the beauty of digital photography: Experimenting is free, and with immediate results.
Best regards
Terry

K20D, Optio I10, DA 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 AL II, A 1:1.7/50, D FA 1:2.8/100 Macro, Sigma 70-300 1:4-5.6 APO DG Macro, Pentax AF 360FGZ

George Lazarette

Link Posted 23/02/2008 - 23:18
terje-l wrote:
The AF-360FGZ does work as a slave flash, triggered by the light from the on-camera flash. So you can hold it in your hand to get some side light.

Not on the K100D, Terry.

G
Keywords: Charming, polite, and generally agreeable.

terje-l

Link Posted 24/02/2008 - 00:05
George,

With my K100D the AF360 does work as a slave, triggered by the pop-up flash. If you read pages 50-51 in the manual you will see that the AF360 has a built-in sensor for slave work.

You will not get the full automatic wireless communication as with the K10D, but still usable, although more manual thinking is involved.
Best regards
Terry

K20D, Optio I10, DA 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 AL II, A 1:1.7/50, D FA 1:2.8/100 Macro, Sigma 70-300 1:4-5.6 APO DG Macro, Pentax AF 360FGZ

Mannesty

Link Posted 24/02/2008 - 00:42
Not with a K100D, it doesn't do wireless using the built-in flash. Two wireless capable external flashes are required.

I suspect that your 'wireless' flash is simply working as a dumb slave and is being triggered by the preflash of the onboard. If you haven't manually reduced the output power the external flash will disharge 100% at that point. When the shutter opens, and the onboard flash fires again, your external flash will still be recharging and it will not be contributing any light to the scene.

If you reduce the output power manually, it could well fire every time the onboard fires but then you simply have manual slave flash, not wireless P-TTL.

To test it, take a photo of the slave flash using your setup. Is the slave flash showing any light in the image? I suspect not. Then, take the same picture into a mirror. You'll see which flashes are firing when the shutter is open.
Hold down the backlight button for a couple of seconds. The number 1 or 2 will appear indicating the slave mode. 1 = wireless slave, 2 = dumb slave.

I think you'll be surprised at what you find, and I think it will not be what you expect.
Peter E Smith

My flickr Photostream

terje-l

Link Posted 24/02/2008 - 11:52
Mannesty,

I appreciate your considerations. However, the original question from ikillrocknroll was
Quote:
Is there any way you can just hold the flash wireless (to get a different angle for the flash) or do you have to have a slave Or would I need to buy the hot shoe adapter and cord (around 60 )

and the answer is yes, you can.

You are correct in saying that the P-TTL will not work, it will only be a simple dumb slave. But for those who cannot afford a K10D or two extra flashguns, it is a reasonable alternative.

I am easily provoked so I have to prove my point with some test shots:

The flash fired both when pointed at (left) and in the mirror (right).



The left picture is taken with pop-up flash only, the right with the AF360 hand held a little to the left of the camera. The shadows indicate that the AF360 did fire.



Of course you cannot use preflash, so manual focus may be necessary in darkish conditions, and red eye reduction is out.

Seeing your impressive list of equipment, and your high number of posts, I realize that I am just a simple amateur in comparison, but I still believe that I have a point...
Best regards
Terry

K20D, Optio I10, DA 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 AL II, A 1:1.7/50, D FA 1:2.8/100 Macro, Sigma 70-300 1:4-5.6 APO DG Macro, Pentax AF 360FGZ

Mannesty

Link Posted 24/02/2008 - 13:11
Terry,

I'm impressed, my post was not intended to provoke and your point is proven.

Now I'm confused . . . .

Tell me what settings you had on the AF360FGZ and the camera. I note from your previous post that you set the flash to wireless mode, which slave mode are you set to? If it was set to mode 2 (dumb) and on full power, I'm very surprised that it could recharge in time for the main flash because it would have surely discharged during the cameras pre-flash cycle.

Alternatively, are you able to eliminate the pre-flash from the cameras onboard flash?

I don't have a K100D so I can't test it. I'm assuming you do have a K100D.
Peter E Smith

My flickr Photostream

terje-l

Link Posted 24/02/2008 - 14:21
The AF-360 was set to Wireless On (middle position of power switch), with the slave mode to 2 (dumb slave). The slave mode switch was set to S. This brings the flash up in Auto mode, but you may switch between Auto and Manual. Manipulating the f-stop and ISO settings will control the flash output.

The camera (K100D) was set to P for this test, giving an exposure of 1/60 f/4.5, and the internal flash was popped up manually.

I believe the pre-flash is fired either as a red eye reduction or as a focusing aid in low light levels, otherwise not. So the secret is to switch off red eye reduction and use manual focus. That should prevent pre-flash.

Of course, in good light conditions auto focus can be employed.

As I mentioned in my previous post, some experimenting may be required to achieve the correct exposure, since its all manual work.
Best regards
Terry

K20D, Optio I10, DA 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 AL II, A 1:1.7/50, D FA 1:2.8/100 Macro, Sigma 70-300 1:4-5.6 APO DG Macro, Pentax AF 360FGZ

George Lazarette

Link Posted 24/02/2008 - 15:52
Terry,

I think the point here is that your set-up is not wireless flash, which is the subject of this thread.

Wireless flash means that there is communication between the camera and the remote flash in order to ensure correct exposure.

As stated, wireless flash works on the better Pentax DSLRs using the camera's pop-up flash unit and a remote 360 or 540.

What you are talking about is simple slave flash, which is very different. As you say, you have to use trial and error to obtain exposure, which is not exactly 21st Century.

There is no need for you to use an expensive 360, because you could achieve the same effect by using a cheap manual flash attached to a light sensor - obtainable on Ebay for a couple of quid.

G
Keywords: Charming, polite, and generally agreeable.

Mannesty

Link Posted 24/02/2008 - 16:10
ikillrocknroll wrote:
Is there any way you can just hold the flash wireless (to get a different angle for the flash)

It seems that there is (see Terry's illustrated posts), it's not very controllable and is not true wireless, but with experimentation . . . it works, and you don't need an expensive flash gun to achieve it.
Peter E Smith

My flickr Photostream

ikillrocknroll

Link Posted 24/02/2008 - 16:31
Yeah, I'm going to buy either the 360 or 540, I havent decided which. For what I want to be able to do (sometimes, not always), ill need the cables and hotshoe, so ill probably buy them when I feel like im lacking.. theyre about 60 more together, so it might be the 360 that I buy.
http://www.behance.net/robbranigan
K20D, DA18-55II, FA50 1.4, DA10-17
To buy: Metz 58 AF-1, DA*50-135, DA12-24, DA100M

MattMatic

Link Posted 24/02/2008 - 20:39
Just to add to this thread:

You can do slave triggered "A" or "M" mode on the AF360 & AF540 with any camera pop-up flash (Canon included )

You can only do wireless P-TTL flash with a pop up from the *ist-D, K10D, and K20D bodies. For all other bodies you need two flash guns.

Matt
http://www.mattmatic.co.uk
(For gallery, tips and links)
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