To trade or not to trade
Posted 03/03/2015 - 09:50
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The sensor size is smaller than a DSLR on some point & shoots even though they may have a higher number of pixels. My Panasonic DMC-TZ20 is 14.1Mp and it shoots decent pictures but even my old 6Mp K100dS outperforms it in picture quality overall. You will need a top of the range P&S to compete with a DSLR.
The TZ20 video can be pretty good but then HD only uses 3Mp.
The TZ20 video can be pretty good but then HD only uses 3Mp.
Posted 03/03/2015 - 12:22
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It depends also on what exactly is on our minds when we hear ' point and shoot' ... There's a lot of talk here about size and weight, but to me what I think of first is about automation and getting quick and easy snapshot type images with really no controls to worry about on the camera ... That's what point and shoot means to me really ....
We have that other thread about the K3 where the new owner seemed to be wanting ' point and shoot' type results from his very sophisticated DSLR. For me, I think of the green mode on my camera as ' point and shoot Mode' . The book I have on the k7 describes this green mode as ' the one you set when handing your camera to a complete novice for a few snaps'. In green mode there are almost no camera controls you can change, the decisions are entirely left up to the cameras brain. So this to me is the meaning of ' point and shoot', and even our big sophisticated DSLR's offer it ...(the ultimate versatile imaging machines )
Having said all that I haven't ever actually set the green mode! So I don't even know if its any good ... Maybe I should try it more, it might actually improve my photos
So, my question ... If ' point and shoot' is about automation and ease, would we not get the best results then from our DSLRs on green mode rather than a small sensor in a compact camera ... Or us there something about the very small cameras that must makes their auto output seem better?
We have that other thread about the K3 where the new owner seemed to be wanting ' point and shoot' type results from his very sophisticated DSLR. For me, I think of the green mode on my camera as ' point and shoot Mode' . The book I have on the k7 describes this green mode as ' the one you set when handing your camera to a complete novice for a few snaps'. In green mode there are almost no camera controls you can change, the decisions are entirely left up to the cameras brain. So this to me is the meaning of ' point and shoot', and even our big sophisticated DSLR's offer it ...(the ultimate versatile imaging machines )
Having said all that I haven't ever actually set the green mode! So I don't even know if its any good ... Maybe I should try it more, it might actually improve my photos
So, my question ... If ' point and shoot' is about automation and ease, would we not get the best results then from our DSLRs on green mode rather than a small sensor in a compact camera ... Or us there something about the very small cameras that must makes their auto output seem better?
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Posted 03/03/2015 - 13:02
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Small sensor cameras are usually used in JPEG mode. Their output is more aggressively sharpened than a DSLR, so images will be bright, sharp and contrasty and make nice prints without any further user input.
Best regards, John
Posted 03/03/2015 - 13:47
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So you see it as essentially about the cameras image processing characteristics, really about the internal software .... And I think you're also implying that the default starting points of these compact camera processing characteristics is more aggressive so as to be really ' print ready' ... Presumably this contrasts with our DSLRs where the default , middle position '0' settings for jpeg processing are much less aggressive, more attuned to output we would then fine tune more on a computer ..... ?
This is presumably the cause of some confusion with newer DSLR users who see this contrast and perceive the DSLR to be not as good, or faulty even, than a point and shoot they are comparing with.
This is presumably the cause of some confusion with newer DSLR users who see this contrast and perceive the DSLR to be not as good, or faulty even, than a point and shoot they are comparing with.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Posted 03/03/2015 - 13:58
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Out of interest, do any of the Pentax smaller sensor models also share this more aggressive jpeg processing character and provide that punchier, print ready output? (I'm thinking of the Q series, MX1, X5 for example ) .... Or do they share a sort of common Pentax style of output, like the DSLRs, and need further work on a computer, or at least more direct control via the custom settings if that's preferred ?
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Posted 03/03/2015 - 14:38
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Pentax don't seem to overdo it like some makes do Nigel, but the MX-1 and WG series, and indeed the X-5 and similar bridge cameras, all will look sharper than the DSRs do. The Q seems similar to the DSLR output, but I do have it set on moderate settings.
Best regards, John
Posted 03/03/2015 - 15:35
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I'm only an occasional jpeg shooter , sometimes from a workflow point of view I find it convenient ...(I regard it as a type of efficient batch processing) . But when I do use the option, as everyone knows, I always advocate taking very firm and positive control through the custom image settings .
When I do this by pulling the sliders around I find there is really quite a lot of control, easily enough to produce punch and print-ready output ... I'd say that plus 4 on the sharpness slider, and plus 2 or 3 on the fine sharpness' ones will give us something ready to print.
There's every possibility that out DSLR jpeg output can be made into ' point and shoot''.
When I do this by pulling the sliders around I find there is really quite a lot of control, easily enough to produce punch and print-ready output ... I'd say that plus 4 on the sharpness slider, and plus 2 or 3 on the fine sharpness' ones will give us something ready to print.
There's every possibility that out DSLR jpeg output can be made into ' point and shoot''.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Posted 03/03/2015 - 16:22
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Pentaxophile wrote:
I tried a NEX camera, which was fun with Pentax lenses via an adapter, and had a 16mm pancake which made it pocketable. Made a nice light kit for holidays (I tend to go hand luggage only).
But the RX100 is a revelation. Genuinely competes with DSLRs on quality, tiny size, sharp f1.8 lens. The NEX seems a bit pointless now, although still has its place for using fast MF lenses at wide apertures (excellent focus peaking).
Having said that, there are still times where I will grab the K30 and 17-50 lens for casual snapping. It's just so much more engaging to use.
I tried a NEX camera, which was fun with Pentax lenses via an adapter, and had a 16mm pancake which made it pocketable. Made a nice light kit for holidays (I tend to go hand luggage only).
But the RX100 is a revelation. Genuinely competes with DSLRs on quality, tiny size, sharp f1.8 lens. The NEX seems a bit pointless now, although still has its place for using fast MF lenses at wide apertures (excellent focus peaking).
Having said that, there are still times where I will grab the K30 and 17-50 lens for casual snapping. It's just so much more engaging to use.
The RX 100 11 is a camera I am considering along with a couple more it has had some rave rev's
Posted 03/03/2015 - 16:25
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johnriley wrote:
There are plenty of compact Pentax lenses that would be ideal with, say, the K-S1 or new K-S2 and they don't seem bulky or heavy to me. The K10D is quite old and relatively heavy compared to current cameras, or even to the K-5 series.
philstaff wrote:
The K10 coupled with the sigma 17/70 is one lump John.
Regards ian
The K10 coupled with the sigma 17/70 is one lump John.
Regards ian
There are plenty of compact Pentax lenses that would be ideal with, say, the K-S1 or new K-S2 and they don't seem bulky or heavy to me. The K10D is quite old and relatively heavy compared to current cameras, or even to the K-5 series.
I agree John I have not tried out the newer models to be fair.
Regards Ian
Posted 03/03/2015 - 16:57
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McGregNi wrote:
Out of interest, do any of the Pentax smaller sensor models also share this more aggressive jpeg processing character and provide that punchier, print ready output? (I'm thinking of the Q series, MX1, X5 for example ) .... Or do they share a sort of common Pentax style of output, like the DSLRs, and need further work on a computer, or at least more direct control via the custom settings if that's preferred ?
Out of interest, do any of the Pentax smaller sensor models also share this more aggressive jpeg processing character and provide that punchier, print ready output? (I'm thinking of the Q series, MX1, X5 for example ) .... Or do they share a sort of common Pentax style of output, like the DSLRs, and need further work on a computer, or at least more direct control via the custom settings if that's preferred ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPozdKEAix4
philstaff wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPozdKEAix4
McGregNi wrote:
Out of interest, do any of the Pentax smaller sensor models also share this more aggressive jpeg processing character and provide that punchier, print ready output? (I'm thinking of the Q series, MX1, X5 for example ) .... Or do they share a sort of common Pentax style of output, like the DSLRs, and need further work on a computer, or at least more direct control via the custom settings if that's preferred ?
Out of interest, do any of the Pentax smaller sensor models also share this more aggressive jpeg processing character and provide that punchier, print ready output? (I'm thinking of the Q series, MX1, X5 for example ) .... Or do they share a sort of common Pentax style of output, like the DSLRs, and need further work on a computer, or at least more direct control via the custom settings if that's preferred ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPozdKEAix4
Posted 03/03/2015 - 17:17
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McGregNi wrote:
It depends also on what exactly is on our minds when we hear ' point and shoot' ... There's a lot of talk here about size and weight, but to me what I think of first is about automation and getting quick and easy snapshot type images with really no controls to worry about on the camera ... That's what point and shoot means to me really ....
It depends also on what exactly is on our minds when we hear ' point and shoot' ... There's a lot of talk here about size and weight, but to me what I think of first is about automation and getting quick and easy snapshot type images with really no controls to worry about on the camera ... That's what point and shoot means to me really ....
In my mind "point and shoot" covers any camera without a built in viewfinder, sophisticated or not. This includes some top end compact cameras and compact system cameras.
I note that Canon is promising a G17. I am hoping it will not be a "point and shoot" like the G16 but will have a built in viewfinder like earlier models....essential for taking pictures in holiday sun and, at times, British Summers.
Posted 03/03/2015 - 17:24 - Helpful Comment
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philstaff wrote:
The RX 100 11 is a camera I am considering along with a couple more it has had some rave rev's
Pentaxophile wrote:
I tried a NEX camera, which was fun with Pentax lenses via an adapter, and had a 16mm pancake which made it pocketable. Made a nice light kit for holidays (I tend to go hand luggage only).
But the RX100 is a revelation. Genuinely competes with DSLRs on quality, tiny size, sharp f1.8 lens. The NEX seems a bit pointless now, although still has its place for using fast MF lenses at wide apertures (excellent focus peaking).
Having said that, there are still times where I will grab the K30 and 17-50 lens for casual snapping. It's just so much more engaging to use.
I tried a NEX camera, which was fun with Pentax lenses via an adapter, and had a 16mm pancake which made it pocketable. Made a nice light kit for holidays (I tend to go hand luggage only).
But the RX100 is a revelation. Genuinely competes with DSLRs on quality, tiny size, sharp f1.8 lens. The NEX seems a bit pointless now, although still has its place for using fast MF lenses at wide apertures (excellent focus peaking).
Having said that, there are still times where I will grab the K30 and 17-50 lens for casual snapping. It's just so much more engaging to use.
The RX 100 11 is a camera I am considering along with a couple more it has had some rave rev's
Be sure to actually handle it before you buy to make sure it is what you expect. I was tempted by the RX 100 mk111 because of the snazzy pop up viewfinder but when I actually tried it out at John Lewis I found that the viewfinder was too small to be much use for me as a spectacle wearer.
Regards, Philip
Posted 03/03/2015 - 19:30
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McGregNi wrote:
This is presumably the cause of some confusion with newer DSLR users who see this contrast and perceive the DSLR to be not as good, or faulty even, than a point and shoot they are comparing with.
This is presumably the cause of some confusion with newer DSLR users who see this contrast and perceive the DSLR to be not as good, or faulty even, than a point and shoot they are comparing with.
+1 to this.
The more professional the equipment, the more the end user is able to do with the image in post.
The extreme example of this would be the s-log video profiles which are extremely flat with lose to no colour saturation or contrast straight out of camera.
I think if a point and shoot delivers a better image than the dslr then you really need to reasses why you have the dslr for that shot in the first place.
More money doesn't make a better picture if you've paid a lot for the wrong tool for the job.
Posted 07/03/2015 - 17:47
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Just taken some MX-1 and K5iis images. Of course, it's not really fair comparing at 1600px, but there is actually an astonishing amount of detail in a good MX-1 shot.
These are all processed from RAW. Quickly run through LR, and some with the X-equals profiles (Velvia 50).
Images aren't necessarily anything special, but do show what the MX-1 can do - especially the flippy screen
http://www.photon.me.uk/images/preview/20150307/
Images starting with IMGP are K5iis + DA*16-50, whereas the MX1_ images are the MX-1
Matt
These are all processed from RAW. Quickly run through LR, and some with the X-equals profiles (Velvia 50).
Images aren't necessarily anything special, but do show what the MX-1 can do - especially the flippy screen
http://www.photon.me.uk/images/preview/20150307/
Images starting with IMGP are K5iis + DA*16-50, whereas the MX1_ images are the MX-1
Matt
http://www.mattmatic.co.uk
(For gallery, tips and links)
(For gallery, tips and links)
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24339 posts
22 years
Tyldesley,
Manchester
The K10 coupled with the sigma 17/70 is one lump John.
Regards ian
There are plenty of compact Pentax lenses that would be ideal with, say, the K-S1 or new K-S2 and they don't seem bulky or heavy to me. The K10D is quite old and relatively heavy compared to current cameras, or even to the K-5 series.