to establish some compelling competitive advantage

New & interesting models by Sony.

link

If they get IQ sorted (Sony not up there with Pentax), I think these will sell.

Regards

Hmm, I'm not convinced by those.

Copared to a DSLR, where is the advantage? You still have a bulky package, weight being another factor, that won't fit in a pocket and therefore will need a case just as before.

If you're carrying a case then you might as well put a K-x in it and keep the advantage of a crystal clear optical viewfinder system. The EVF still has a long way to go before it's as good as a Pentaprism or Pentamirror viewfinder.

I agree with John.

To my mind this type of camera should be marketed with a range of truely tiny pancake lenses, not 18-55 and 18-200 zooms which make it just as big and bulky as a small SLR without the advantages of a proper viewfinder.


Now if Pentax were to make one with versions of the DA pancakes......

So it's a point and shoot with an APS sensor and removable lens?

Not to mention another lens mount!

If Sony are serious about this segment of the market they'll have to try harder than this.

The current PEN and GF-1 models can use existing lenses, the Samsung GX10 looks the part, but the Sony just looks like a P&S with a big lens. People want style as well as image quality in this section of the market, Sony's advertising department is going to have a hard job selling this one!

Just looks horrible to me!!

My thoughts exactly. It looks really odd with the superzoom.

I think these will sell like hot cakes (not to me, but they'll find buyers).

So that just leaves Pentax, Canon and Nikon holding out against a mirrorless format now - who'll be the first to break ranks?

I tend to agree with the hot cakes.

One example, my eldest (1 has been brought up in an SLR/DSLR environment. At one point, he was using a Dimage Z1. He was keen on photography so I gave him my istD, 18-55 and an 80-320. He used it twice. He said it was too much to carry about.

He bought a Sony T series point and shoot for convenience.

I think that serious photographers are the only people who give thought to equipment and results from that equipment. We are very few and far between in the lager picture and do not really contribute to the manufacturers profits as we tend to hang on to kit and change is infrequent to us.

There must be many more times the number of customers for this type of camera than for DSLR's. It's a halfway house for those that don't want a bulky SLR but can brag about being able to change lenses on a compact.

It's these sorts of products that normally sell well as Olympus have already proven.

Only a point of view and just think that it's always worth a look to see what the other camps are offering.

Regards

I think Pentax would have a significant advantage if they were the first of the three to break ranks, concentrated on a range of pancake lenses to ensure pocketability and ensured backwards compatibility with legacy glass.

I think the Sony is ugly as hell, its never going to sell to the "lifestyle" market which is the target-group. These are people who really just want a better P&S - no complexity just great pictures and fit in a pocket.

To use myself as an example, I was attracted into buying a new camera by the Olympus Pen/Pancake concept, but then found it was too limited in what it could do, and the cost so high, that I might as well go for a DSLR instead, and eventually ended-up with Pentax (and very happy that I did!).


The pancake idea is good, but they would need to introduce a cheap range of plastic non-limited ones, because noone is going to pay £400-£1000 per lens on a £200 camera...!!! but if they are K-mount and still fast, we all benefit from that!

Couldn't agree more. The problem with a lot of these mirrorless cameras is that the lenses negate any size benefit the bodies may have.

Hrm, I guess I'm the only one who looked at that and liked the idea and size of the camera? If something like that came out in K-mount, my dreams would have been answered.

our point is not that the size is a bad idea, but that it's actually no smaller once you mount a lens on it. Dimensionally yes it's smaller than a K-x, but in terms of practicality it's still too big to pocket so it makes no practical difference.

Basically these little mirrorless wonders are trying to be a modern ME+40mm Pancake, which is a good idea. Unfortunately the marketing departments keep getting hold of them and going "it wont sell unless it has a 10x zoom" and crippling them with a lens which is twice the size of the camera and turns a dinky little thing into an ugly monstrosity with no advantage for the consumer.


My biggest fear is that these DO sell well, because punters are gullible. The EVFs are almost certainly cheaper to make than an optical viewfinder, so the optical finder will go the way of the aperture ring. No actual benefit to the consumer by their removal, just a cheaper way to make a slightly worse camera. Then because we actual photographers are so few and far between, the OVF will disappear from sensibly priced cameras and we'll be left fighting over the last functioning K7.

This whole range of cameras only really works for me if they follow the Leica model.
The M9 looks like a Leica.
All these current one, except maybe for the Pen, look like compacts but they aren't.

Maybe a digital LX or MX. Because they look like the LX, not because they are compact.
Whats the advantage of having a small body, if you still have to spend space and weight on lenses?

It neat and cool, but doesn't really deliver what people are claiming.

On the other hand it can also satisfy the small minority which likes going out with on prime lens in a small package, a la Ricoh.

Personally I think the mirrorless camera section of the market a la the Olympus PEN is going to grow and become a significant sector of the market. Not only does it attract newbies, and people who want better than a compact but not a dSLR, it is also gaining many fans from people who like to use older lenses on a digital body.

If Pentax enter this section of the market I think they should:

a) have a new mount and some slick pancake lenses for it but
b) have a really good new mount -> PK adaptor (SDM support maybe?)
c) make sure it is possible to have new mount to whatever adaptors
d) make sure it has a distinctive style and doesn't just look like another compact. Retro is "in" at the moment, perhaps something that does hark back to the M series cameras in design (as the K-7 harks back to the LX).
e) It needs all the usual Pentax advantages such as in-body SR.

I am not sure I would want one, but I think the PEN has started a new trend which isn't going to go away. It would be good if Pentax got in there with an excellent design from the start.

Just my tuppence worth.

K.