Shake reduction and tripods


Blaze

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 11:02
I'd forgotten all about the issue with SR and using a tripod. It was only after using the Self Timer recently that I looked in the manual.

What exactly can be the problems leaving SR on and using a tripod ? I have had issues with my Kx + DA 55-300 at horsey events. Hand held, I can understand, but sometimes the results with the tripod have been disappointing. It didn't occur to me that perhaps it was leaving the SR on.
Last Edited by Blaze on 22/11/2013 - 11:13

walkeja

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 11:06
I've never had problems when leaving SR on when using a tripod, so I don't understand the issues either.
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sandinista

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 11:18
Take a look at this link Sally
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Blaze

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 11:24
Thank you for that, Jim. The article explains it very well .
So in fact the shake reduction can work against itself when used with a tripod.

I have looked, but there's no other way of being able to urn SR on or off other than going into Info and using the 4 way controller ...... or is there ??

punkrockemo

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 12:05
When you use the timer or remote to activate the shutter the camera automatically switches shake reduction off.

Blaze

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 12:12
Thank you. I used the timer for the first time in two and a half years the other evening. Fortunately the camera beeped at me when trying to do something this morning and I realised that I was still in timer mode.

What I meant was is there a quicker way of going from SR on to SR off and vice versa other than going via the information button ? This is only in connection with use or non- use of a tripod.
Last Edited by Blaze on 22/11/2013 - 12:12

ChrisA

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 12:32
sandinista wrote:
Take a look at this link

I would take anything that article says with a big pinch of salt, given that it says this:

Quote:

If you shoot with a camera that features in-camera IS ... and plan on using a third-party lens that also features an IS system, turn off the cameraís IS system and rely on the lensís IS system to smooth out the bumps in the road. Running both systems simultaneously will most certainly compromise your ability to hold things steady, not to mention cause damage to one or both of the IS systems.

The notion that having lens-IS and body-SR on at the same time can cause damage is complete baloney.

The Pentax SR system does not detect movement of the image across the sensor - it detects body movement. So there is no possibility of feedback from the one affecting the other.

And the body-SR detects the movement whether the lens-IS is on or not, unless there's some clever new electronics that knows whether certain lenses have their IS on.

The reason not to have them both on at the same time is that by moving the sensor, the body-SR will put back in what the lens-IS has just taken out (since the body assumes that camera movement is causing blur, so it moves the sensor in an opposite sense).

Incidentally, I've heard this claim that the SR system causes its own shake when the camera is on a tripod many times over the years, and FAIK it may be true of other brands' lenses, but I've never seen a shred of reliable evidence that it's true with Pentax. I know what the manuals all say, but I've never seen any of the effect people infer from that in reality.

I did some careful tests on all this a long time ago, and the shake caused by releasing the shutter with a finger was much greater than anything I could observe that might have been sensor-induced shake.

That's why we should use the mirror-up function on a tripod if possible.

Usually when people claim they've seen SR-induced shake, they've taken the picture before the SR has stabilised, and as MattMatic showed, years ago, the result can be worse than not having the SR on at all.

I wouldn't stress about leaving SR on.
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Last Edited by ChrisA on 22/11/2013 - 12:43

Blaze

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 12:43
I wasn't too fussed about the bit concerning IS systems because as far as I know the Kx doesn't have it, nor does my DA 55-300.

As far as I can see, the mirror up function is for slow shots, not action. Sometimes it's convenient to take shots hand held, if I can be reasonably close up. But with the 55-300mm at full stretch, I'm better off with the tripod.

As it happens, I've come to realise that I can't get a good shot at full stretch and the close shots I've done at horsey events seem to have worked fine, even with SR left on.

I just wondered if switching it off would have made any difference to the longer range shot, given the margin of shake could be huge at the end of 300mm.

ChrisA

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 12:47
Blaze wrote:
I wasn't too fussed about the bit concerning IS systems because as far as I know the Kx doesn't have it, nor does my DA 55-300.

No Pentax lens has an IS system.

All Pentax dSLRs since the K10D and K100D have had sensor-shift shake reduction, apart from, I believe, the K110D which did not.
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johnriley

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 13:00
It's one of those odd things that I just feel isn't worth the time spent on it. According to the manual SR should be switched off when using a tripod. So why spend any effort trying to disprove what the manufacturer says when it's easy enough to just switch it off?

As it happens, when I use a tripod I use the 2 second self timer as well, so problem solved anyway.

I have a suspicion that at macro distances in particular SR would only detract from sharpness rather than help. Therefore, a solidly held sensor will give the optimum resolution with high quality lenses. The reverse is of course the new AA simulation in the K-3, where SR is used to actually add a small amount of vibration.
Best regards, John

ChrisA

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 13:09
johnriley wrote:
It's one of those odd things that I just feel isn't worth the time spent on it. According to the manual SR should be switched off when using a tripod. So why spend any effort trying to disprove what the manufacturer says when it's easy enough to just switch it off?

Two reasons:

1. Academic interest.
2. The avoidance of misinformation.

Like that hogwash about damage in the article, and the recent nonsense about raw files containing the pixel locations of image noise.

People see things written down, and believe them. Then they interpret them, and then reproduce them with their own interpretations... and it becomes increasingly difficult to separate fact from myth.

In the manuals it just says switch it off - and unless they've changed the wording in the ones since the K-5, there's nothing about SR-induced shake.

For all we know, it's advised so that you can press the shutter and not have to worry about the SR-stabilisation delay.
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johnriley

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 13:43
I can go with the academic interest, if we have the time and inclination to follow that particular avenue.

In this instance, the avoidance of misinformation I would take as following the instructions. If in doubt, read the instruction book. If we want to know why, one thing we could usefully do is ask the manufacturer.

But I also agree that the internet is rife with misinformation. Fortunately there's a good deal of good information as well.
Best regards, John

ChrisA

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 13:51
johnriley wrote:
In this instance, the avoidance of misinformation I would take as following the instructions. If in doubt, read the instruction book.

Sure. But the instruction books (K-5 and before, I don't know about more recent ones) do not say that having SR on causes shake.

That's just people's interpretation, and as I say, I've read lots of claims, but seen not a single shred of evidence supporting it, and found none myself when I looked quite carefully.

When I used to follow the instructions in this respect, I lost more photos by forgetting to turn the SR back on, than I ever might have (in my imagination) by leaving it on in the first place.

So I thought "hmm, I wonder, do I really need to follow these instructions?"

And concluded that I didn't. Each to his own, though.
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Mannesty

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 14:04
ChrisA wrote:
In the manuals it just says switch it off - and unless they've changed the wording in the ones since the K-5, there's nothing about SR-induced shake.

I have used Sigma IS lenses with their IS on and Pentax SR left on, no problem that I can see.

Yes, the manual says switch it off, but why? They may state that because you don't need it when a lens is on a tripod, but will it cause any problem by leaving it on?. I've never seen any evidence of it.

If the manual states something like "turn SR off when the camera is on a tripod", and I can't get my head around to understanding the reason for that statement, I question it rather than just follow it, not to cast doubt on the statement, but to understand more.
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Last Edited by Mannesty on 22/11/2013 - 14:06

ChrisA

Link Posted 22/11/2013 - 14:12
Mannesty wrote:
ChrisA wrote:
In the manuals it just says switch it off - and unless they've changed the wording in the ones since the K-5, there's nothing about SR-induced shake.

Yes, the manual says switch it off, but why. They may state that because you don't need it when a lens is on a tripod, but will it cause any problem by leaving it on?. I've never seen any evidence of it.

Nor I.

However, it is well-known that firing the shutter before the SR has stabilised can lead to much worse images than not having the SR on at all.

So I could just about stretch my imagination to the possibility that if you were a bit ham-fisted with the button, caused a lot of shake with your finger, and then the SR didn't have time to stabilise, you'd get an image with more shake in it than if you'd had the SR off in the first place.

I didn't see evidence of that in the experiments I did - I got the same amount of finger-induced shake whether the SR was on or off, but it's a possibility I can't completely rule out.

Which is not to say at all that it's anything to do with what people claim - namely that some feedback loop is actually putting shake in when the sensor actually started out stationary.

I leave mine on all the time. All the delayed modes switch it off automatically, in any case.
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