Shake reduction and tripods
Posted 22/11/2013 - 18:13
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Blaze wrote:
Thank you for that, Jim. The article explains it very well .
So in fact the shake reduction can work against itself when used with a tripod.
I have looked, but there's no other way of being able to urn SR on or off other than going into Info and using the 4 way controller ...... or is there ??
There is only one way to do that, buy a K-3 and set the RAW/Fx button to turn it on and off.
Thank you for that, Jim. The article explains it very well .
So in fact the shake reduction can work against itself when used with a tripod.
I have looked, but there's no other way of being able to urn SR on or off other than going into Info and using the 4 way controller ...... or is there ??
Pentax K-3, Pentax K-5.
Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-5.6, Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8, Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8
Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 WR, Pentax DA 55-300mm f/4.0-5.8
Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA 50mm f/1.8, Pentax D-FA 100MM f/2.8 Macro WR, Pentax DA*300mm f/4.0
Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-5.6, Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8, Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8
Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 WR, Pentax DA 55-300mm f/4.0-5.8
Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA 50mm f/1.8, Pentax D-FA 100MM f/2.8 Macro WR, Pentax DA*300mm f/4.0
Posted 22/11/2013 - 22:02
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I've never read any conclusive proof. I try and turn off the Sigma lens OS or the camera SR, try and turn off SR on a tripod but have often forgotten and have never seen any difference in the images. I have also struggled with the theory of when to have it on or not in the sense that hand held to on a tripod is not two things. There is a line from a lot of shake, e.g someone with shaky hands, through less so, maybe a monopod, an average tripod on a windy day - where do you draw the line with the theory?
Posted 22/11/2013 - 22:17
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Food for thought though it looks like at my stage and with the equipment I have, it shouldn't make much difference.
Thanks for all the input !
Thanks for all the input !
Posted 22/11/2013 - 22:57
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ChrisA wrote:
1. Academic interest.
2. The avoidance of misinformation.
Like that hogwash about damage in the article, and the recent nonsense about raw files containing the pixel locations of image noise.
People see things written down, and believe them. Then they interpret them, and then reproduce them with their own interpretations... and it becomes increasingly difficult to separate fact from myth.
In the manuals it just says switch it off - and unless they've changed the wording in the ones since the K-5, there's nothing about SR-induced shake.
For all we know, it's advised so that you can press the shutter and not have to worry about the SR-stabilisation delay.
^^^ All makes sense. Pentax manuals aren't very detailed and being not one to blindly believe anything, saying "just switch it odd" is no good for me. The manual should say "We advise to switch it off because ......"johnriley wrote:
It's one of those odd things that I just feel isn't worth the time spent on it. According to the manual SR should be switched off when using a tripod. So why spend any effort trying to disprove what the manufacturer says when it's easy enough to just switch it off?
Two reasons:It's one of those odd things that I just feel isn't worth the time spent on it. According to the manual SR should be switched off when using a tripod. So why spend any effort trying to disprove what the manufacturer says when it's easy enough to just switch it off?
1. Academic interest.
2. The avoidance of misinformation.
Like that hogwash about damage in the article, and the recent nonsense about raw files containing the pixel locations of image noise.
People see things written down, and believe them. Then they interpret them, and then reproduce them with their own interpretations... and it becomes increasingly difficult to separate fact from myth.
In the manuals it just says switch it off - and unless they've changed the wording in the ones since the K-5, there's nothing about SR-induced shake.
For all we know, it's advised so that you can press the shutter and not have to worry about the SR-stabilisation delay.
.
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
Posted 22/11/2013 - 23:37
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Smeggypants wrote:
being not one to blindly believe anything, saying "just switch it odd" is no good for me. The manual should say "We advise to switch it off because ......".
I'm entirely happy to take at face value a recommendation from the guys that built the SR system that it should be turned off when the camera is on a tripod. It's actually not even a conscious decision for me since using a tripod without also using the timer or the remote or the remote+mirror-up -- all of which deactivate SR -- undermines the very purpose of a tripod. Otherwise, I keep SR on all the time, except for those rare occasions when I take a panning shot.
being not one to blindly believe anything, saying "just switch it odd" is no good for me. The manual should say "We advise to switch it off because ......".
Posted 23/11/2013 - 04:09 - Helpful Comment
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Blaze wrote:
As it happens, I've come to realise that I can't get a good shot at full stretch and the close shots I've done at horsey events seem to have worked fine, even with SR left on.
Actually you need to define 'good shot' As it happens, I've come to realise that I can't get a good shot at full stretch and the close shots I've done at horsey events seem to have worked fine, even with SR left on.
Just guessing that they are not as sharp as you would like them to be, there might be several reasons for that (and without seeing pictures with EXIF information) it's difficult to say.
1)
The shutter speed that you use is too slow.
>>
Motion of the subject can cause blur.
>>
Handheld, the (old) rule of thumb is to use shutter speeds shorter than 1/fl; so for 300mm, 1/300s as the slowest. For dSLRs, you should multiply this by the crop factor (1.5) so 1/500s. SR and good technique will allow longer shutter speeds than this but I must admit that with the DA55-300 I always try to use this rule of thumb (1/250 or better) at 300mm.
>>
With tripods, mirror slap can cause minute vibrations (that's what the 2 second timer is for).
2)
In general, lenses are not at their best at their extremes. This applies to both focal length and aperture. So try to get those long range shots at e.g. 250mm instead of 300mm; you can always crop a little if necessary.
Sorry that this is not quite related to the actual question, but I hope it helps to get better shots.
Pentax K10D + Vivitar 55/2.8 macro + Super Takumar 55/1.8 + SuperMultiCoated Takumar 85/1.8 + SuperMultiCoated Takumar 135/3.5 + SuperMultiCoated Takumar 200/4 + Super Takumar 300/4
Pentax K100D + DA18-55ALII + DA55-300
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Pentax K100D + DA18-55ALII + DA55-300
Pentax K5 + FA31Ltd + M50/1.7 + DFA100WR + M120/2.8 (+ DA18-55WR at occasion)
Posted 23/11/2013 - 07:59
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Maybe not what I was asking, but useful anyway !
For horse action shots, I tend to use Tv and 1/500 if light allows, and hand-held. It works well for closer shots where I don't need to crop. I think I've been asking too much of camera and lens regarding long distance and detail is lost if I have to crop too much.
For horse action shots, I tend to use Tv and 1/500 if light allows, and hand-held. It works well for closer shots where I don't need to crop. I think I've been asking too much of camera and lens regarding long distance and detail is lost if I have to crop too much.
Posted 23/11/2013 - 12:29 - Helpful Comment
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Hi Sally, I know we had some correspondence on similar topics (not quite the same) a week or so ago but there are a few more points raised in this thread. For the type of shots you do at Horse meetings, if you are using the tripod for these you will need to switch the SR off and I would imagine the camera is moving with the tripod head. Same applies if using a monopod, which may in fact be the best option for you as it allows some freedom of movement whilst still adding stability. In these circumstances you can't use the 2 second timer or mirror up functions as you need to take shots immediately.
I think also it would benefit you to get a longer lens as we discussed before, something like a Sigma 150-500, which although heavy, is very useable on a monopod.
The final observation I would make is that the K-x which you are using has a lot more shutter / mirror vibration than a K-5 would have. This can make shake more likely, especially with longer lenses.
Best wishes
David
I think also it would benefit you to get a longer lens as we discussed before, something like a Sigma 150-500, which although heavy, is very useable on a monopod.
The final observation I would make is that the K-x which you are using has a lot more shutter / mirror vibration than a K-5 would have. This can make shake more likely, especially with longer lenses.
Best wishes
David
Posted 23/11/2013 - 12:56
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Thank you, David. Some useful tips there.
I tend to use the tripod for the longer shots when a fraction of a millimetre shake on my part means a lot more out on the subject ! I'll have a play with SR and tripod/monopod down at the local riding club and see if I can learn something.
I think in my case it's a question of knowing what comes out well and what doesn't, and understanding why. I've been very happy with horses in action shots that have been up to 250mm but not happy with anything further away. In fact I've stopped doing them and stuck to obstacles closer to hand. I'm fortunate to be allowed on the course locally so have even got shots at 55mm.
I'm looking at the K5 .... and a longer lens, porbably for next year, but a lot depends on Father Christmas !
I tend to use the tripod for the longer shots when a fraction of a millimetre shake on my part means a lot more out on the subject ! I'll have a play with SR and tripod/monopod down at the local riding club and see if I can learn something.
I think in my case it's a question of knowing what comes out well and what doesn't, and understanding why. I've been very happy with horses in action shots that have been up to 250mm but not happy with anything further away. In fact I've stopped doing them and stuck to obstacles closer to hand. I'm fortunate to be allowed on the course locally so have even got shots at 55mm.
I'm looking at the K5 .... and a longer lens, porbably for next year, but a lot depends on Father Christmas !
Posted 28/11/2013 - 11:39
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Why not use a real flimsy tripod. This insures there is always some movement. Just walk near it. Then you don't have to switch off the shake reduction.
This may be a great selling argument for flimsy tripods!!
Regards, Horst
This may be a great selling argument for flimsy tripods!!
Regards, Horst
Posted 28/11/2013 - 12:56
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Horst wrote:
Why not use a real flimsy tripod. This insures there is always some movement. Just walk near it. Then you don't have to switch off the shake reduction.
This may be a great selling argument for flimsy tripods!!
Regards, Horst
Why not use a real flimsy tripod. This insures there is always some movement. Just walk near it. Then you don't have to switch off the shake reduction.
This may be a great selling argument for flimsy tripods!!
Regards, Horst
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214 posts
13 years
Take a look at this link
If you shoot with a camera that features in-camera IS ... and plan on using a third-party lens that also features an IS system, turn off the camera’s IS system and rely on the lens’s IS system to smooth out the bumps in the road. Running both systems simultaneously will most certainly compromise your ability to hold things steady, not to mention cause damage to one or both of the IS systems.
The Pentax SR system does not detect movement of the image across the sensor - it detects body movement. So there is no possibility of feedback from the one affecting the other.
And the body-SR detects the movement whether the lens-IS is on or not, unless there's some clever new electronics that knows whether certain lenses have their IS on.
The reason not to have them both on at the same time is that by moving the sensor, the body-SR will put back in what the lens-IS has just taken out (since the body assumes that camera movement is causing blur, so it moves the sensor in an opposite sense).
Incidentally, I've heard this claim that the SR system causes its own shake when the camera is on a tripod many times over the years, and FAIK it may be true of other brands' lenses, but I've never seen a shred of reliable evidence that it's true with Pentax. I know what the manuals all say, but I've never seen any of the effect people infer from that in reality.
I did some careful tests on all this a long time ago, and the shake caused by releasing the shutter with a finger was much greater than anything I could observe that might have been sensor-induced shake.
That's why we should use the mirror-up function on a tripod if possible.
Usually when people claim they've seen SR-induced shake, they've taken the picture before the SR has stabilised, and as MattMatic showed, years ago, the result can be worse than not having the SR on at all.
I wouldn't stress about leaving SR on.