Pentax mirrorless SLR

I've just had a brainwave for the next generation of mirrorless cameras, the next new feature for their marketing push .... Fully acoustically controllable artificial ' real camera' sounds, in Dolby Digital surround sound ... With 1 click ' Library Mode' !

The X100S, with its leaf shutter, is very quiet indeed. Also, Fuji have an artificial shutter sound on their X series cameras so quiet is the shutter. The Sony 7S has a fully electronic shutter option which is quieter yet, though amusingly the A7R shutter sounds akin to cocking an AK47.

I do always find it completely ludicrous when I hear camera phones and other devices with no moving parts emitting these electronic synthesized noises that mimic a mechanical film camera ... Even down to the film winding and shutter cocking noises! It seems bizarre that human operators in 2014 are considered by the manufacturer to need these particular noises in order to tell that they have taken a shot! I I think it is because the actual man/machine interface and connection is weak in these devices, for a variety of reasons, and the sounds are a kind of comfort reassurance, and compensation But of course what it really points to is poor design and functionality.

I accept that some electronic sounds, even on mechanical cameras, could have validity ... One example is focus confirmation ... But this is a different concept, as it really is just a duplication of an electronic visual indication, and it is logical to give the user a choice over how they wish to receive the information.

I always try to ground these conversations by reminding all that a mirrorless version of a DSLR is potentially exactly the same in a lot of ways, just minus the mirror box and requiring a different focus method (on sensor autofocus points) and some way of visualising the info given there is no optical viewfinder. It's akin to live view on current Pentax DSLR's.

Mirrorless benefits / differences are actually quite small, it's just that mirrorless developers tend to let go and go nuts with their implementations. This could of course be implemented on future DSLR designs, but the main two and then Pentax are just slow to offer this sort of tech.

By which I'm referring to EVFs for use during video mode, Near Field Communications, wifi, phone control apps that don't require a flu card to work, faster burst rate (Samsung NX-1 is 15fps, Sony A6000 is 11fps), Tracking autofocus across the whole frame, ability to remote trigger HSS flashes without needing one located on the camera itself, higher bit rates during video, options of electronic shutters etc etc.

By it's nature, mirrorless designs can adapt to nearly any brands lenses via cheap adapters. Pentax looked to utilise the K mount directly on the K-01 and missed this opportunity. Whilst the K mount allows the use of legacy lenses, a mirrorless design allows the use of nearly all legacy lenses, not just from the same brand.

Anyhow, the point is that there is a few points that are mirrorless specific, but there is an aweful lot that just happens to have been developed and released on a mirrorless body that could also be applied to a DSLR body, but haven't been. Personally I'd like a flippy screen weather sealed Pentax, with mechanical stabilisation returned during video mode, with an option for higher quality video, and with a hybrid viewfinder, so I can use optical if I want, or digital for when I want the focus aids that an EVF offers over optical. And so I can use the viewfinder during video. I'd like FF and I'd like an APS-C crop feature so I can use my existing APS-C only lenses if I want to, just at a lower resolution than FF.

And I want the focus options that mirrorless cameras presently offer, so I'm talking on sensor focus points, even if they're not used when in optical mode. No one else is doing that yet, combining the best of both worlds. New features pulling the best from the mirrorless devices, but merging with the body design, grip and optical capabilities of the DSLR.

This all sounds silly and funny and whingy I'm sure to some, but Sony have now released the A7ii which has a better bigger grip, is weather sealed, has sensor stabilisation and via mirrorless is compatible with a huge variety of legacy lenses. Traditionally you would have called that very much Pentax territory, but it's out there now and is FF. All jokes aside, Pentax have to do something different.

What are the lottery odds out there in NZ Richard?

I know right, it's all I want I want I want.

I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want...

I want to stay with Pentax. I want to stay with the bodies, but I want them to move with the times, producing devices that compete with the mirrorless styles that are winning the buzz wars, the sales and excitement. Some of that stuff can only be delivered on a mirrorless, but SO much of it is actually open to all manufacturers.

Another way to look at it is, if you have a live view capable DSLR, then you've already got mirrorless functionality.

I see a Hybrid View finder as giving the opportunity to keep both sides engaged. As has been pointed out, as soon as you put a lens on, it's not really any smaller, so I don't see weight as actually being a huge factor in mirroless. Plus sinking GPS into all DSLR's (to give free astrotracing to all) is a huge opportunity for a point of difference.

Right now though, you get the same APS-C sensor as a DSLR, 11 fps, active subject tracking, wifi and free phone app control, NFC and direct upload to facebook, an EVF, a flippy screen, and the chance to add a focal reducer to simulate FF fov/depth of field with all your existing Pentax manual focus glass, in a sony that costs £499.00 with FREE Delivery in the UK.
I'm not joking, Pentax/Ricoh have to do something more to remain competitive, as do Canon and Nikon.

Can you wait until Xmas 2015 ?


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You want, you want, you want ... Yet you don't have it .... Is that just because all this new technology you hunger after is still really quite unaffordable ... Or are you only telling us the positives? Is there a downside to the system you desire? For example, apart from the body, what would the likely cost of a new lens collection be, or would you expect to manage on old glass and adaptors? Also, are there limitations to the modern EVF focussing aids depending on the type of lens fitted?

(I ask these questions of course as they apply to any similar system that Pentax might release in future ... And we might hope that Pentax could overcome any limitations ....

Just dawned on me, the title says it all. How do you get a mirrorless Single Lens Reflex as by definition an SLR has a prism and mirror.

Best regards

Keep Up!!!!

aah but does it really mean mirrorless FF DSLR.... again a S...

The real benefits from a mirrorless design is that the manufacturer doesn't have the cost of making the mirror, penta-prism & focusing screen and making sure they all sit in exactly the correct plane and position (in the same way that 'lens corrections' meant lens designers could relax their quality criteria). The slightly smaller size and extra 'shiny shiny' factor makes them attractive to the mass market, having looked through a few while panning the camera, I'm very unlikely to buy one on a serious camera.

As has been mentioned, the 'R' in (D)SLR means Reflex (or reflected), the Penta-prism is an optional extra but a mirror (moving or pellicle) is definitely a requirement.

Hi Nigel,

All good questions mate, which I'll try to answer below.

*** Note: This is a Pentax forum, but the question was asked by other Pentax users. ***

Why I don't have

I had two items on the shopping list this year:

A higher quality action camera.
For this I have selected a GoPro Hero 4 Silver, which now has excellent night time capabilities for the first time ever in an action cam. It also offers 'Protune' settings in video (and now stills pictures also) which gives a flat picture profile and ups the bit rate to Mbit/s. It also features 4k recording at a tiny 15fps, which is only really good for static landscapes, but of more use is 2.7k @ 24, 25 & 30fps which will give room to crop a 1080p image with no detail loss. Oh and it not only has a screen, but it's a touchscreen.
This is coming on Sunday, which is my birthday

Pentax/Ricoh equivalent: WG-M1
Assessment: Comprehensively beaten in most areas I'm interested in.

A better platform for video
For this I was looking at the Sony NEX 6 / A6000 type range.
I've decided to hold off on this because the A5100 came out and this had the newer XAVC-S video codec, which is not present on the A6000. Then there are rumours of an A7000 which will almost certainly add this video capability to the A6000 platform. It seems silly to rush this, and it also gives me time to see what Pentax offer. So no, price is not a factor presently. This stuff is available now if you're not interested in the newest video codec, and the price is very competitive, coming in at roughly the same as a new K-S1, just without LED's in the handle.

Pentax/Ricoh equivalent: K-01?
Assessment: Comprehensively beaten in most areas I'm interested in. Hopefully a new Pentax offering would address this. I think Pentax should release a new line of mirrorless lenses, like they have with the Q, and an official adapter to adapt existing K mount lenses to the new mount. That's just my opinion. Actually this is all just my opinion.



To answer the question on functionality:
If I went with the Sony I'd probably look to secure one native lens, to use the autofocus features, but then manually focus for video work anyway, using my existing Pentax lenses.

The focus assist aids are present for all lenses, with regards to focus peaking (adjustable for colour and intensity) and digital zoom. These match, but often surpass, what we can do on our Pentax's already in live view mode, and they are available via the viewfinder.

The focus features, such as autofocus, require Sony Lenses. They can work on Canon lenses via an adapter but the reports say that they area much slower. I wouldn't bother.
Some specific focus features, such as eye tracking and autofocus require specialist Sony lenses.

Major downside for me? It's not Pentax. I want to stay with Pentax. I'm not sold on the form factor of the small mirrorless cameras, but feel that they do mimic the earlier '60s and '70s film equivalents.

Anyhow, apologies if my posts have become too large on this topic.

I'll try Gwyn, I'll try.

Gotta love a Sony......

Best regards

I'm rather conscious that the discussion is liable to become mired in debating the point that there is no such thing as a mirrorless "SLR". As another poster points out, I used SLR to denote "a camera that has interchangeable lenses, a sensor at least as big as APS-C, the same level of controls as a DSLR".

I apologise for the confusion that has evidently caused.

I've enjoyed the responses thus far nonetheless and am grateful to those that have contributed their thoughts on the original question.