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pentax k-r Disappointed

tickover
Posted 07/07/2013 - 15:20 Link
Hi All
Thanks again for all the input everyone , nice to know there are those who care.Since all your efforts, things have improved 100% this end and the enjoyment is back as it should be. I am sticking with JPeg at the moment as I have no software for Raw [and it seems a bit daunting Hi]I have put an advert in the Classifieds for Elements or Photoshop, but I would like the photos to be straight off the camera, so I can compare.Also thanks for all the Menu suggestions which I will try .
Thanks Again for you time and effort Regards Terry
McGregNi
Posted 07/07/2013 - 15:44 Link
Very glad to hear that you're getting more satisfaction!

I raised the question about JPEG only to highlight the differences. The consensus here has always been that our Pentax cameras are capable of very good JPEG output.

It seems logical to me (although not a JPEG shooter) that we should try and take as much control of the fine tuning of JPEG shots on the camera. This is because at capture the in-camera processing is actually working with the full RAW data, so the adjustments are made with this advantage at the point of conversion to the camera JPEG. (Straight after this the RAW is thrown away for ever - this is your only grab of it in JPEG-only mode).

We don't have this advantage when opening the JPEGs into editing software. So its worth spending some effort when taking the shots to check the results as much as possible on the LCD and try and optimise then and there.

I've always been puzzled as to why there's not more discussion and information posted on this forum about the differences between the custom controls on the different models, and what effect they have on certain styles of photography.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Edited by McGregNi: 07/07/2013 - 15:45
johnriley
Posted 07/07/2013 - 16:49 Link
You know we're not saying that Nigel.
Best regards, John
McGregNi
Posted 07/07/2013 - 18:04 Link
I had my suspicions ... It is revealing though, your comment about DSLR output being 'intended' for further editing, as opposed to compacts I think you mentioned.

I think I get the point - could it be re-interpreted to mean that you see the larger amount of image data created by a DSLR as having greater latitude, greater potential, for further enhancement.

I think you have said before that you often shoot JPEGs which you then edit further in PS. Could it also be true that the DSLRs are not as optimised for JPEG output as the compacts or CSC types? As I said above, whilst we have quite a lot of fine control over JPEG output through the DSLR menus, there's surprisingly little discussion here about the differences, pros and cons etc between the different bodies in these respects.

Seems this may be an aspect of the cameras that is largely disregarded ?
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
johnriley
Posted 07/07/2013 - 18:10 Link
It's simply because compact cameras are more often used by casual users, so the JPEG output tends to be brighter and sharper. This means nice colourful prints can be made without too much or even any extra work being done.

DSLRs generally have less sharpness and other processing applied as it's expected users may well want to do this themselves in Photoshop. They can be made to look the same as the compact camera type JPEGs by changing the parameters available in the menus.

This leads to users who are new to DSLRs sometimes feeling they lack the pazzazz that their compact camera images had. The DSLR won't suit everyone, but it does have much more potential for high quality results.
Best regards, John
McGregNi
Posted 07/07/2013 - 18:28 Link
OK, so the defaults are set up differently, which can give different initial impressions.

Do you think then that the fine controls available on the DSLRs (eg Sharpness, Fine Sharpness 1 + 2, high / low contrast etc, can be used to actually equalise the effects and produce results that wold match up to those that the smaller camera types generate by default?
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
johnriley
Posted 07/07/2013 - 18:35 Link
I don't see why not Nigel. I suppose it depends on what use the cameras are being put to.

Not everyone wants to "mess about" with post processing. They may just want to shoot pictures and enjoy it, perhaps sharing on Facebook, perhaps as part of another hobby. There's a multitude of possible motivations.
Best regards, John
McGregNi
Posted 07/07/2013 - 19:15 Link
Of course. And there are plenty of other advantages for all types of user to a DSLR - the generally wider range of lenses and accessories would be the main thing I would say.

It does make me wish though that there was more knowledge shared and expressed specifically about the various 'scene modes', 'custom parameters' etc that each body contains, what they offer to different types of users and what are optimum settings.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
johnriley
Posted 07/07/2013 - 20:00 Link
Ultimately, the best way to find out what settings do is to try them. I would encourage anyone to try out all the different possible scene modes and special effects on a camera. It's a great way to learn.

I always used to suggest that we should shoot at least one slide film. That is something that teaches discipline as it will show up just how bad our composition skills and exposure techniques are.
Best regards, John
MrB
Posted 07/07/2013 - 20:14 Link
For those who wish to shoot Jpegs, our modern Pentax DSLRs have many user-adjustable parameters, working with effective firmware, to produce good camera Jpeg image files. They also have very good sensors for capturing a wide dynamic range, plus an additional feature - effective in-camera Jpeg HDR Capture and Processing, useful for when the LCD Review (Bright/Dark Areas + the Histograms) shows that one exposure won't capture the range. So it seems to me that, as long as image data has not been mislaid by inadequate exposure of important shadow or highlight details, our Best Quality Large Jpeg image files contain plenty of data for tweaking in software, if necessary.

Philip
johnriley
Posted 07/07/2013 - 20:19 Link
Philip, you're absolutely right.
Best regards, John
Pentaxophile
Posted 07/07/2013 - 20:21 Link
RAW shooters always just want that 'little bit more' though. I've been using OOC jpegs from my K10D more and more often (although I usually shoot RAW+, just in case!) The jpegs look a bit dodgy at 100%, but already have a nice pop that saves a ton of editing time. For me it's a balance between wanting to use RAW to primp every last drop of quality from the sensor, and my eagerness to get finished shots from a shoot which are certainly good enough - especially if you're displaying on the web anyway
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johnriley
Posted 07/07/2013 - 20:37 Link
To be fair to the JPEG, the current cameras produce stunning Premium JPEG files. You would have to work your files very hard to find shooting RAW instead showed any visual difference.

I have nothing against anyone shooting RAW, but what does worry me is the thought that some perfectly happy photographers are made to feel they have to shoot RAW to so much as get a sharp picture. This can lead them on a path where their joy in photography is severely damaged.

Photography magazines can take part of the blame and what's missing is the voice of balance. Column writers such as Kevin MacDonnell used to provide this balance to give a sense of realism and practicality that people could latch onto.
Best regards, John
Edited by johnriley: 07/07/2013 - 20:38
MrB
Posted 07/07/2013 - 20:58 Link
Yes, John, there is a distinct "attitude" with some people regarding Raw files - "Real photographers only shoot in the Raw".

Those types also tend to repeat the myth that Jpegs can't be processed without self-destructing. In reality, it is interesting to see just how much extensive editing of Jpegs is possible (though not usually required) in PS Elements or similar software - they can even be adjusted, including their white-balance, in ACR. If there is a bit of degradation in the image quality, it doesn't usually show when viewing images like most normal people would - i.e. at a sensible distance from a screen or a print up to about A3 size.

The important best Jpeg practice is - 1. Always keep the original Jpeg image file and work on a copy; 2. Keep the Jpeg compression factor low; and 3. Edit and then re-save a Jpeg image in one session - try to avoid opening/editing/saving the same Jpeg file several times.

Philip
McGregNi
Posted 07/07/2013 - 21:51 Link
Its a bit like AA filter / non AA filter comparisons - the real value of one over the other only shines through clearly under certain conditions. The consensus seems to be that the value to an individual of RAW over a camera JPEG would vary depending on what the image was destined to become and how the person intends to get there.

This thread started with a 'Disappointed' K-R user who was thinking of ditching it and going back to another brands compact (hasn't a G9 got a tiny sensor compared to APS-C?).

So are we ending up by saying that to get the same kind of 'finished' result without a lot of computer work, he should make adjustments to the custom image parameters via the lcd menus? I haven't ever seen the specs for the K-R, but what would be the specific items to adjust to achieve the same 'brilliant' results the OP reported he used to get from the other camera?
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

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