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Lightroom & black & white

herb
Posted 22/08/2010 - 17:08 Link
Hi

I own a K7 camera. Over the last several months I've explored many of the features of this wonderful (for me) camera. One of the most intriguing is the ability to shoot RAW in black & white with the various digital filters. When I have time I also photograph the same in the normal RAW in colour.

My problem: When I import these images into Lightroom (I have version 2.7) The icons come in b & w, but LightRoom converts them immediately into the original RAW - e.i. colour. Ordinarily this shouldn't be a problem as I have sufficient skills to convert the image into b&w. That I'm unable, though, to save my image with the camera adjustments from my original shoot is bothersome.

Other than using the Pentax utilities, is there a way to resolve this problem?

Thanks

herb greenslade
Mannesty
Posted 22/08/2010 - 17:22 Link
Interesting question, and one to which I don't know the answer because I don't have a K7.

RAW (or PEF/DNG) frames contain information recorded directly from the sensor without any of the in-camera changes.

I thought, until now, that the sensor could only record in colour.

If however you chose to save the images as RAW+JPG, the JPG may well retain any camera/user induced changes.

Is it also possible that you are applying a development preset when you import the images into Lightroom. If you set the preset to 'None', that might resolve your problem.
Peter E Smith - flickr Photostream
Edited by Mannesty: 22/08/2010 - 17:23
Anvh
Posted 22/08/2010 - 17:32 Link
If I understand correctly you want to import the RAW files from the camera with the camera settings?

I don't believe you can do that because Lightroom re-renders the RAW with his own engine and therefore create a new image out off the RAW information.
The simplest thing is to use or create a developing setting that you save as a pre-set and apply to your photos, this can be applied during importing or when editing photos.
Stefan
Comment Image

K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
Anvh
Posted 22/08/2010 - 17:35 Link
Mannesty wrote:
I thought, until now, that the sensor could only record in colour.

The sensor still only can records in colour because there is a fixed bayer filter in-front off it, there are sensor without such a filter and they simply record the luminance but they aren't use in standard DSLR cameras.
Stefan
Comment Image

K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
herb
Posted 22/08/2010 - 18:35 Link
Hi

To Stefan - I read your comments before I sent out the request. When you talk of presets, I would assume that this would alter everyone of my imported images, and still wouldn't give me what I want, e.i. the specific setting for each individual image as set by the K7. Someone mentioned an upgrade for version 2.2 that includes specific camera settings, but I don't know if it is available for the K7, nor do I know whether it allows Lightroom to read the in-camera adjustments.

To Peter. When I first saw a demo of the use of an infrared filter for the K7 from a Pentax marketer, I just assumed that it was a part of the newer digital filters that worked for jpeg's only, something with which I was already familiar having experimented with my *istDS. (BTW, the K7 isn't as nice as the older Pentax cameras which gave really nice infrared exposures when a proper infrared filter was placed before the lens - something that was lost with the new CMOS sensor).

Actually it is the ability to adjust the RAW in camera which allows the camera to "record" in b&w. It is still a RAW image with adjustments that are applied to the Jpeg icon that appears on one's camera screen, the same that allows one to determine that one's image is properly exposed and has the proper white white-balance.

What I want is the ability to import the RAW files into Lightroom with the K7 in-camera adjustments and still have the ability to go back to the original RAW

Something akin to eating one's cake and still having it too - I guess

Thanks for your interest

herb greenslade
flossie
Posted 23/08/2010 - 07:54 Link
herb wrote:

What I want is the ability to import the RAW files into Lightroom with the K7 in-camera adjustments and still have the ability to go back to the original RAW

Something akin to eating one's cake and still having it too - I guess


Easy - Shoot "JPG+RAW". You then get a copy with the in-camera adjustments, and a copy that you can manipulate from scratch.
Still shooting in the dark (literally and metaphorically)...
Anvh
Posted 23/08/2010 - 08:57 Link
herb wrote:
Hi

To Stefan - I read your comments before I sent out the request. When you talk of presets, I would assume that this would alter everyone of my imported images, and still wouldn't give me what I want, e.i. the specific setting for each individual image as set by the K7. Someone mentioned an upgrade for version 2.2 that includes specific camera settings, but I don't know if it is available for the K7, nor do I know whether it allows Lightroom to read the in-camera adjustments.

The thing with RAW is that it is unprocessed data from the sensor and the camera and lightroom process them differently.
Also the settings from the camera only are applied to the JPG-preview inside the RAW, that's what you see when previewing the photo inside the camera not the actual RAW file.

herb wrote:
To Peter. When I first saw a demo of the use of an infrared filter for the K7 from a Pentax marketer, I just assumed that it was a part of the newer digital filters that worked for jpeg's only, something with which I was already familiar having experimented with my *istDS. (BTW, the K7 isn't as nice as the older Pentax cameras which gave really nice infrared exposures when a proper infrared filter was placed before the lens - something that was lost with the new CMOS sensor).

That infra-red filter is all software based, they alter the coloured image so much that it looks like a infra-red but off course it isn't.
You can still use real infrared filters, the problem is the filter infront off the sensor blocks infra-red so you need longer exposures. Nothing to do with the CMOS sensor.

herb wrote:
Actually it is the ability to adjust the RAW in camera which allows the camera to "record" in b&w. It is still a RAW image with adjustments that are applied to the Jpeg icon that appears on one's camera screen, the same that allows one to determine that one's image is properly exposed and has the proper white white-balance.

That's the thing.
The camera will always record in colour and then alter those images to mimic a B&W image. Since RAW is truly raw information from the sensor it does not have those digital filters applied only to the embedded JPG preview in the RAW.

herb wrote:

What I want is the ability to import the RAW files into Lightroom with the K7 in-camera adjustments and still have the ability to go back to the original RAW

Something akin to eating one's cake and still having it too - I guess

Since you can't do that, the simplest thing to do is to make developing setting preset that mimic the digital filters inside the camera.
You can apply them to all photos you import, to the selected photos or simply a single photo.

Lightroom already have some standard pre-sets you can use, maybe they are good enough or you can adapt those and then save it as a preset. You can also save adjustments you made to an photo as a pre-set.
Stefan
Comment Image

K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
Edited by Anvh: 23/08/2010 - 09:00
johnriley
Posted 23/08/2010 - 10:25 Link
Why not shoot RAW+JPEG and apply the in-camera settings to the JPEG file. This is then saved as a new file, keeping the original.

You then have eaten your cake and kept the original cake intact...
Best regards, John
herb
Posted 23/08/2010 - 15:36 Link
Hi

Thanks to everyone who has taken an interest in this subject.

To the RAW & Jpeg solution: There is already a solution by using the Pentax utilities that gets the image as interpreted by the camera into a TIFF or Jpeg file. Also I assume that the RAW image is also saved. I've tried to get the parameters so that I could insert them into Lightroom, but so far have failed. Once in Tiff or Jpeg all further adjustments are destructive. What I want is the RAW file adjusted to the parameters as given by the camera so that I can use these as a stepping stone if required. By having duplicates or virtuals in Lightroom, I can do whatever with the image without losing the original.

To Stefan:

One day I have to sit down and actually learn how to do presets

Re: Stefan's
Quote:
That infra-red filter is all software based, they alter the coloured image so much that it looks like a infra-red but of course it isn't.
You can still use real infrared filters, the problem is the filter infront of the sensor blocks infra-red so you need longer exposures. Nothing to do with the CMOS sensor.

The DS sensor, unlike its competitors didn't have or had a very mild infra-red filter over its sensor. Using a 89B filter the image would be exposed and converting the image to b&w one would get an excellent infra-red image at a reasonable hand held exposure. With the K7 CMOS sensor & an 89B filter, the exposure is at least 10 times longer requiring a tripod.

And the in-camera infra-red filter is a joke.

As an aside: with my *istDS I had a lot of problems with over-exposed leafage. I wonder now if it was because the infra-red rays weren't filtered sufficiently in the camera.

Again thanks to everyone

herb greenslade
herb
Posted 23/08/2010 - 15:40 Link
Hi

Just another thought. It just occurred to me, the one thing I haven't tried is saving the image in DNG format. Maybe??? Has anyone tried ???

herb greenslade
johnriley
Posted 23/08/2010 - 15:49 Link
The point is that a RAW file is a RAW file and it makes no difference - it's the nearest thing to untouched by software that you can get. Whether it's DNG or PEF the end result is the same.

In camera special effects are applied to a JPEG and a duplicate made so that the original is untouched.

What you are really asking for is a RAW file that has modifications made to it by the camera, and that's called a JPEG...
Best regards, John
Anvh
Posted 23/08/2010 - 16:20 Link
Presets are very easy to make in lightroom.
Just open a photo in develop window, do the developing you want to save (auto's also work but will save the auto action not the values that come from it)

Then on the left where you see the history you also see the window presets.
Simply click on the + next to it and you will be prompted with a window which things you want to save as a preset, name the preset, click create and you're done.

I've lightroom 3 now but I believe lightroom 2 already had some standard presets as well including some B&W, you could use those as you base and edit them to your liking and save the adjustments.

About the infrared.
That's indeed right but like you said it first it sounded like the CMOS sensor was to blame but that isn't really the case, it's the filter infront off it.
You can have that removed, some companies do that.

ps. here is a nice site and it has a B&W preset but also a lot of other tips and tricks that would come in handy when you're using lightroom so bookmark that site http://lightroomkillertips.com/2009/presets-better-black-and-whites/
Stefan
Comment Image

K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
Edited by Anvh: 23/08/2010 - 16:24
herb
Posted 23/08/2010 - 16:54 Link
Hi Stefan & John

Maybe my last message didn't make it. It was just a "thank you" again and an admission that I was on some sort of a Quixote mission charging at an impossible wall.

To update you, I've just wasted another 30 minutes looking at my DNG files. I convert all of my PEF's to duplicate DNG's and I notice that the DNG file contains the adjustment information that I do in Lightroom within its structure (the PEF files have an external file of adjustments). Checked at one of my DNG's to ensure that I also have the original RAW info.

So , I just shot two images in b&w and saved in DNG format, imported them into Lightroom. Same thing, within nanoseconds the b&w converts back to the original RAW info. If I press "camera default" button the file momentarily returns to b&w like a long lost memory that quickly fades back to the RAW reality. I'm scrod!!!

Also thanks for the link

herb greenslade
Smeggypants
Posted 23/08/2010 - 17:20 Link
Wassup

I love B&W shots. However I can't see any reason to shoot in B&W ( in camera ). I just convert to B&W in Lightroom or Silver Efex pro when I see a shot that looks like it will work in monochrome. Is that not a workflow that suits you?
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
herb
Posted 23/08/2010 - 18:34 Link
Hi

Smeggypants wrote:


I love B&W shots. However I can't see any reason to shoot in B&W ( in camera ). I just convert to B&W in Lightroom or Silver Efex pro when I see a shot that looks like it will work in monochrome. Is that not a workflow that suits you?

I've been doing that in digital for at least 4-5 years, including converting the odd photo I've shot in colour film. I sometimes have two or more duplicates with different adjustments in my Lightroom file.

As a Tri-X lover for most of my years, I have a preference for b&w and the majority of my images (bird shots rarely included) I convert to b&w. Unfortunately, some people want colour, so digital RAW complies.

The fact that one can experiment with filtration in b&w in-camera (and I have never been a filter user) adds another dimension to my pre-visualization of an image and as such it is a disappointment when one cannot use that as one's starting point. It is very rare that one keeps an image without doing some adjustment either in colour or b&w - therefore the reason to shoot RAW.

This year not being 100% familiar with the quirkiness of my new K7, for some shoots, I've had no option but to convert most of my images into black & white. I've also found that shooting in black & white in-camera has given me a better perspective in these cases on my exposures, focusing and formatting. I'm happy, but some people have wanted me to have more colour.

herb greenslade
PS BTW you look like a young David Niven. Are you?

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