Just who is training these poltroons?

Stefan

I believe you'll find that those numbers were discredited. They sound good but mean nothing.

As always happy to be corrected but I understood that in many European countries (Poland, Czech Republic, France, Germany) one was required to provide ID on request. Rereading your post 'or when you being halted' sounds like on request to me.

Many Britons feel that compulsorily carrying an ID card isn't right. I'm one of them. One of the many reasons why they are struggling to introduce ID cards in the UK.

Mike

There were ID cards in WWII, but they were dropped quite soon afterwards I think.

The real reason the government wants to introduce them is probably more to do with benefit fraud that any other stated reason.

Churchill introduced ID cards during the war, and promised to abandon them after it was over. Before he could, the conservatives were defeated, and the incoming Labour government made a decision to keep them.

In 1952, a Horsforth Liberal, Harry Wilcock, was stopped by the police whilst driving in London and ordered to produce his identity card. He refused, arguing that the cards had been a wartime emergency measure. The magistrates’ court agreed with his argument in principle but, as the law was still in force, could only find him guilty and give him an absolute discharge. Wilcock appealed against his conviction and the Lord Chief Justice sat on the appeal. Lord Justice Goddard upheld the decision of the lower court but agreed with Wilcock, saying, “in this country we have always prided ourselves on the good feeling which exists between the police and the public. Random demands to see identity cards tend to make people resentful of the acts of the police and incline them to obstruct the police instead of assisting them.” The following year parliament abolished identity cards without even a division.

At the risk of getting this wrong Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Thank you for that brief history, I hadn't realised that the cards were not withdrawn at the end of the war. Ration books carried for a good while too didn't they as did rationing.

The day before they introduce ID cards I am sure I'll be able to go to Brick Lane or similar and buy any number of them in any name.

Mike

We stray from the point here, but don't forget it was almost impossible to import a higher priced German or Japanese made camera until the late 1950s or early 1960s.

Really? These things are forgotten so quickly. I can recall getting my free orange juice in a medicine bottle when I was a nipper which I assume was part of rationing or something. I was very young I hasten to add.

Mike

Mike, what I mean with being "halted" is when they stop you because you broke the law. Here they need to have a reason to request for your ID, how it is in the other countries I don't know.

Since we have this rule here it speeds up the work for the police when you're being arrested, they know for sure that you are you and besides that it isn't really being used and in such a way it's used propable and I don't see any reasons to object against that.

Stefan is right here. And I promise you something else...
If something like that(the OP's topic) would happen here in the Netherlands, heads would fall. Chances would be great the responsible minister would resign.

I think we still have some way to go, before we are experiencing the same as in the UK.

Martin.

The possible difference is that, in Anglo-Saxon countries, the presumption is that you didn't break the law. That's up to a court to decide.

Al

"An Englishman's home is his castle" is perhaps a phrase that explains the viewpoint in the UK. Basically, that what we do is our affair and nothing to do with anyone else - the presumption is one of innocence. Anything that offends that is a bit contrary to the way of life as it has always been.

In the same way the presumption in law has been that everything is allowed unless specifically proscribed, because Honour and other good values were taught as a way of life, this was a viable situation.

Whether this can be sustained in the modern world I really don't know.

Well put, John.

Al

Very nicely put John. As a member of another community that has been criminalised by the 'Violent Crime Reduction Act' for the sake of a knee jerk reaction, forgive the long winded post that follows. Several Whiskeys are involved in the production of this post.

As an Airsofter, I now have a 'specific defence' for the purchase, sale or construction of a 'Realistic imitation Firearm' Hello?! Innocent until proven guilty? I shouldn't have to be presumed guilty of buying a (bloody expensive!) replica fire arm (incapable of being converted to fire live rounds, I should add), with the intent to commit a criminal act, and only have with a specific defense if it ever went to court that I am not, in fact, intending to rob a bank... Rather then paying for the privilege of shooting plastic pellets at other fellow nutters on the odd weekend.

It's the legislators that are the main problem, and the acts of a regretable minority of those charged with the enforcement of the laws passed that cause the problem. This is compounded by the lack of appropriate action by those with the power and authority to deal with the situation, and prevent it from happening again.

But, I will still not tar the vast majority of Police officers with the same brush, anymore then I will judge the actions of those in active service with the deplorable actions of a minority of service men and women.

It is still incredibly rare for a photographer to be stopped by the Police, so I, for one, will not worry about it just yet. I will, however, keep a close eye on proceedings, as I feel that any erosion of our civil liberties needs to be addressed.

I do have a question for all of those concerned about the situation that are based in the UK, and I do not intend this to be inflammatory. Have you written to your MP about your concerns?

I ony ask, as the only time I've bothered in the past, was in connection to Violent Crime Reduction Bill (as it was before a modified form was passed as an act). Many Airsofters and re-enactors did as well, and the result was a huge success, even if it should never have been needed in the first place.

Certainly, if matters continue to, well, continue, I would write to my MP with my concerns. If enough people do, it may help more then any number of outraged comments in blogs or forums. I know it did with Airsofting...

hmm I took a couple of pictures of a French navy ship when we were on holiday... That would be illega as well I presume...
(I was on deck of the ferry from Rostock to Helsinki and I was playing with my Bigma...)

You perhaps indicate the difference between our countries by this.

There, the police need to have a reason to ask to see ID.

As an example, because we do not yet have ID cards, consider the current powers of arrest the police have here.

A component part of the arrest power is that it it 'necessary' to arrest. The act goes on to giver acceptable reasons, such as name and address not known etc., and one in particular, 'for the prompt and efficient investigation of the allegation'.

This was discussed in parliament, where it was recorded in Hansard that the new powers were meant to place a greater restriction on the powers of arrest, as officers would have to show that an arrest was necessary.

What has happened here, and in a very short time scale since the new powers were introduced, weeks I would suggest, is that officer will use the 'prompt and efficient' reason because arresting someone means that it is administratively so much easier for the officer. This abuse is happening every single day somewhere in this country.

The police, as an organisation, here are administratively, and IMO, morally, corrupt. They will routinely abuse any law to suit their purpose. This is why it is necessary to stand up to any new power that our current government will introduce.

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=866379


Well, that's really added to my knowledge of crime detection methods. The police now can tell if an offence has been committed or not, just by knowing your name and address. Damn but they're good. A confirmation, if one were needed, that the Wesayso Act has been ratified.