how do I protect my self
Posted 01/12/2009 - 19:23
Link
James maybe you do find Ken's post offensive but he's bang on the money IMO, he is after all a professional making his entire living from photography as I understand it. A pro has taken time to offer advice - treasure it.
Mike
Mike
---------------------------------------------------
You can see some of my shots at my Flickr account.
You can see some of my shots at my Flickr account.
Posted 01/12/2009 - 19:23
Link
Now i have read more, I am understanding more about what your are saying. I'd give them a copy of low resolution images on CD and that's it. For free they are getting a very good deal. Leave it at that.
Posted 01/12/2009 - 19:36
Link
ok I will put this one down to experience give them the book and tell them if they want the sd card with the 78 EXTRA IMAGES they will have to pay for them no low res no water-mark just high res images.
If they slag me off and I lose work because of it then they where no very good friends to start with.
Ken I am sorry but I am trying to work as a semi-pro just building up clients and a good rep.
I wanted to charge for my photography from the start but the wife got involved and they are really here friends
James
If they slag me off and I lose work because of it then they where no very good friends to start with.
Ken I am sorry but I am trying to work as a semi-pro just building up clients and a good rep.
I wanted to charge for my photography from the start but the wife got involved and they are really here friends
James
My Fluidr
"To see in colour is a delight for the eye, But to see in black and white is a delight for the soul" ANDRI HERY
"To see in colour is a delight for the eye, But to see in black and white is a delight for the soul" ANDRI HERY
Posted 01/12/2009 - 19:39
Link
Don wrote:
I have given gift certificates ( with an actual dollar amount on them) to friends and when they see the dollar amount on the gift certificate, and the regular price list, they never ask for extra freebies and they appreciate the work I do for them.
I think perhaps it's a little different when you're a pro, giving for nothing what you normally charge for. When it's your living, and it's clear to the recipient of the gift that you spent time on them, that you could have been using to earn money for yourself. I have given gift certificates ( with an actual dollar amount on them) to friends and when they see the dollar amount on the gift certificate, and the regular price list, they never ask for extra freebies and they appreciate the work I do for them.
In that respect it's clear what the dollar value of the gift is, although it's perhaps rubbing their nose in it a little to give them an actual gift certificate. If I give someone a present, I don't leave the price tag on it to show them how expensive it was.
But different strokes for different folks, I guess.
For an amateur the 'value', as such, is less clear. Giving up a weekend or two that you would otherwise have spent doing something else, has no dollar value as such, since it's your spare time that you've given freely.
I may be completely wrong, but somehow I sense that the OP is taking out his frustration with himself (for not making things clear up front) and with the guest that trashed his lens, (Edit: and with his wife, for stitching him up ) on the friends whose wedding he's shot for them as a gift.
Making the friends responsible, even in some 'token' way, for the damage to the lens, is just wrong, to my mind. It wasn't their fault, so suck it up, instead of trying to get them to pay for what they didn't break.
If it's a gift, perhaps it should be given a little more freely.
If it's not a gift, make it clear.
.
Pentax K-3, DA18-135, DA35 F2.4, DA17-70, DA55-300, FA28-200, A50 F1.7, A100 F4 Macro, A400 F5.6, Sigma 10-20 EXDC, 50-500 F4.5-6.3 APO DG OS Samsung flash SEF-54PZF(x2)
.
Pentax K-3, DA18-135, DA35 F2.4, DA17-70, DA55-300, FA28-200, A50 F1.7, A100 F4 Macro, A400 F5.6, Sigma 10-20 EXDC, 50-500 F4.5-6.3 APO DG OS Samsung flash SEF-54PZF(x2)
.
Posted 01/12/2009 - 19:40
Link
pink wrote:
ken I'm sorry but i find your contribution to my plea for help offensive
James
Many pros would respond harsher. When amateurs step into a competitive business and market/price/conduct themselves in a manor that hurts/devalues the industry... it affects everyone in the industry.ken I'm sorry but i find your contribution to my plea for help offensive
James
I get people frequently arguing about my pricing, saying "I got a freind with a nice camera who will do this for free, a hundred bucks, half what you charge" etc...
The ones that hire us are the ones that believe us when we tell them all the things that can go wrong.
You are at least, one step over the cliched "friend with a nice camera", and you actually got some nice images for them. alot of those guys don't have back up gear...
but it's not good for professional wedding photography out there, the way you're doing things.
So please, consider that word of mouth thing I mentioned earlier, do what you must to make them happy, then if you want to work for free, call up some pros and offer to work as an assistant to gain some experience, learn the job, then ask them for a job, if no job, then start a business properly.
Please don't take offense when the kinds of pros you just undercut on a job they make their living at, try to be frank and honest with you.
Fired many shots. Didn't kill anything.
Posted 01/12/2009 - 19:42 - Helpful Comment
Link
Unless you put a large watermark accross the middle of the picture to the extent that it would spoil the viewing experience then. There is little/nothing to stop others copying and printing your pictures.
In your position, if I decided to give them the pictures, I would reduce the pictures to the same number of pixels as their viewer. Ensure the EXIF including my copyright remained. AND put a small copyright statement on each picture much like you have on your website's home page (personaly I would make it a bit bigger and bolder than that); all it needs to say is "James Hodds (c) 2009".
A free (PC) program such as FASTONE IMAGE VIEWER would resize, watermark and retain EXIF all in one step. (just google FASTONE)
Some would still be happy to print from that or crop the copyright statement off, and some would know how to remove the EXIF, but thats life.
Although you have promised to give the album to the happy couple for free, that doesn't preclude making a small profit from prints if others ask for them and I'm sure if you explained that to your friends then they would be happy with the compromise. As I'm sure they would show friends both the book and viewer this would be advertising for the print sales
In your position, if I decided to give them the pictures, I would reduce the pictures to the same number of pixels as their viewer. Ensure the EXIF including my copyright remained. AND put a small copyright statement on each picture much like you have on your website's home page (personaly I would make it a bit bigger and bolder than that); all it needs to say is "James Hodds (c) 2009".
A free (PC) program such as FASTONE IMAGE VIEWER would resize, watermark and retain EXIF all in one step. (just google FASTONE)
Some would still be happy to print from that or crop the copyright statement off, and some would know how to remove the EXIF, but thats life.
Although you have promised to give the album to the happy couple for free, that doesn't preclude making a small profit from prints if others ask for them and I'm sure if you explained that to your friends then they would be happy with the compromise. As I'm sure they would show friends both the book and viewer this would be advertising for the print sales
Good luck
Bob
Pentax user since 1978, Digital since 1997.
Kit includes: K-7, K20D, K10D, *istDS, full set DA* lens, etc
Bob
Pentax user since 1978, Digital since 1997.
Kit includes: K-7, K20D, K10D, *istDS, full set DA* lens, etc
Posted 01/12/2009 - 19:50 - Helpful Comment
Link
ChrisA wrote:
In that respect it's clear what the dollar value of the gift is, although it's perhaps rubbing their nose in it a little to give them an actual gift certificate. If I give someone a present, I don't leave the price tag on it to show them how expensive it was.
But different strokes for different folks, I guess.
For an amateur the 'value', as such, is less clear. Giving up a weekend or two that you would otherwise have spent doing something else, has no dollar value as such, since it's your spare time that you've given freely.
I may be completely wrong, but somehow I sense that the OP is taking out his frustration with himself (for not making things clear up front) and with the guest that trashed his lens, (Edit: and with his wife, for stitching him up ) on the friends whose wedding he's shot for them as a gift.
Making the friends responsible, even in some 'token' way, for the damage to the lens, is just wrong, to my mind. It wasn't their fault, so suck it up, instead of trying to get them to pay for what they didn't break.
If it's a gift, perhaps it should be given a little more freely.
If it's not a gift, make it clear.
I agree for the most part... but I got a friend that runs a restaurant, and another that sells cars... I don't ask them for freebies.... most times when I do get asked it is for silent auction prizes...Don wrote:
I have given gift certificates ( with an actual dollar amount on them) to friends and when they see the dollar amount on the gift certificate, and the regular price list, they never ask for extra freebies and they appreciate the work I do for them.
I think perhaps it's a little different when you're a pro, giving for nothing what you normally charge for. When it's your living, and it's clear to the recipient of the gift that you spent time on them, that you could have been using to earn money for yourself. I have given gift certificates ( with an actual dollar amount on them) to friends and when they see the dollar amount on the gift certificate, and the regular price list, they never ask for extra freebies and they appreciate the work I do for them.
In that respect it's clear what the dollar value of the gift is, although it's perhaps rubbing their nose in it a little to give them an actual gift certificate. If I give someone a present, I don't leave the price tag on it to show them how expensive it was.
But different strokes for different folks, I guess.
For an amateur the 'value', as such, is less clear. Giving up a weekend or two that you would otherwise have spent doing something else, has no dollar value as such, since it's your spare time that you've given freely.
I may be completely wrong, but somehow I sense that the OP is taking out his frustration with himself (for not making things clear up front) and with the guest that trashed his lens, (Edit: and with his wife, for stitching him up ) on the friends whose wedding he's shot for them as a gift.
Making the friends responsible, even in some 'token' way, for the damage to the lens, is just wrong, to my mind. It wasn't their fault, so suck it up, instead of trying to get them to pay for what they didn't break.
If it's a gift, perhaps it should be given a little more freely.
If it's not a gift, make it clear.
the point was it is bad for business to have people thinking you'll work for nothing... the next bride never wants to pay more than the last bride, and if all your business comes word of mouth, She already knows what the last bride paid.
Fired many shots. Didn't kill anything.
Posted 01/12/2009 - 19:59
Link
I think this is getting of subject a bit
I conducted myself with complete professionally and with out fuss I directed clients/wife friend in a professional manner at no time was my self or my assistants unprofessional.
The Clients/wife friends where very impressed with the way I worked and said "they would recommend me"
and more to the point they where impressed and delighted with their images
all i was asking for was help and advice with the sd card and stop the root of free
James
I conducted myself with complete professionally and with out fuss I directed clients/wife friend in a professional manner at no time was my self or my assistants unprofessional.
The Clients/wife friends where very impressed with the way I worked and said "they would recommend me"
and more to the point they where impressed and delighted with their images
all i was asking for was help and advice with the sd card and stop the root of free
James
My Fluidr
"To see in colour is a delight for the eye, But to see in black and white is a delight for the soul" ANDRI HERY
"To see in colour is a delight for the eye, But to see in black and white is a delight for the soul" ANDRI HERY
Posted 01/12/2009 - 20:05
Link
pink wrote:
I think this is getting of subject a bit
I conducted myself with complete professionally and with out fuss I directed clients/wife friend in a professional manner at no time was my self or my assistants unprofessional.
The Clients/wife friends where very impressed with the way I worked and said "they would recommend me"
and more to the point they where impressed and delighted with their images
all i was asking for was help and advice with the sd card and stop the root of free
James
Glad to hear it!I think this is getting of subject a bit
I conducted myself with complete professionally and with out fuss I directed clients/wife friend in a professional manner at no time was my self or my assistants unprofessional.
The Clients/wife friends where very impressed with the way I worked and said "they would recommend me"
and more to the point they where impressed and delighted with their images
all i was asking for was help and advice with the sd card and stop the root of free
James
Please consider the off topic remarks as general advice for others out there that might find themselves being asked to do freebie. lot's of people use the 'search' function to research questions they have that may have already been asked and answered.
Fired many shots. Didn't kill anything.
Posted 01/12/2009 - 20:15
Link
A SD card with 78 images is a fair exchange for a glowing reference and a willingness to talk to any of your future customers providing them with a testimonial to your skill, for years to come, many many many years to come?
Doug
Doug
Lurking is shirking.!
Posted 01/12/2009 - 22:57 - Helpful Comment
Link
James
When i used to work as a motor mechanic I had a lot of friends & family wanting work done cheaply but it started to get ridiculus & i would end up doing a weekends work for virtually nothing and they would want more and more for free and they would complain just a loudly if something was not to thier satisfaction.
Personally as these are your wifes friends I would give them the card but of course ask for a replacement card or ask them to supply a card for you to put the pictures on - let them have the pics as they are - dont spend any more time on them - and put it down to experience and leave it at that - if they want more after this come up with a polite excuse perhaps you are short of time at the moment etc etc thats what i had to do to get my wekends back and dont forget to politly make it clear that you can also use the images for promotional purposes as it works both ways.
Then as others have advised get a business plan, insurance etc etc and go for it learning from your experience - sometimes you will need to be firm but polite with these people otherwise you will be taken advantage of. Remember every professional has to start somewhere
When i used to work as a motor mechanic I had a lot of friends & family wanting work done cheaply but it started to get ridiculus & i would end up doing a weekends work for virtually nothing and they would want more and more for free and they would complain just a loudly if something was not to thier satisfaction.
Personally as these are your wifes friends I would give them the card but of course ask for a replacement card or ask them to supply a card for you to put the pictures on - let them have the pics as they are - dont spend any more time on them - and put it down to experience and leave it at that - if they want more after this come up with a polite excuse perhaps you are short of time at the moment etc etc thats what i had to do to get my wekends back and dont forget to politly make it clear that you can also use the images for promotional purposes as it works both ways.
Then as others have advised get a business plan, insurance etc etc and go for it learning from your experience - sometimes you will need to be firm but polite with these people otherwise you will be taken advantage of. Remember every professional has to start somewhere
K7D DA 18-55 mk11WR|50-200 wr|DA16-45|Tamron SP90|lots of manual pentax glass
Posted 01/12/2009 - 23:45 - Helpful Comment
Link
If I was in your shoes (obviously, I'm not), I would ask your "friends" NOT TO DISCLOSE how much (little) they paid for the job. When people know one of their friend got a "freebie", they'll never want to pay what the job is worth.
A few years ago, I did a free job for a charity event. Not long after, I got swamped by other "charity" organizations waiting a free job, too. I learned my lesson. No more free job. I will give a substantial discount, but I won't do a job for free. And I'll have a contract that clearly states what I offer and what I don't do.
A few years ago, I did a free job for a charity event. Not long after, I got swamped by other "charity" organizations waiting a free job, too. I learned my lesson. No more free job. I will give a substantial discount, but I won't do a job for free. And I'll have a contract that clearly states what I offer and what I don't do.
Yves (another one of those crazy Canucks)
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3241 posts
18 years
Worcestershire
First you do the shoot for nothing.
Then you provide the book for nothing.
Then for some odd reason you lend the laptop when you could have just posted low res shots of Flickr say or on a CD they could play in their TV.
Free stops when you say no or just take so long to do something they query this and you get the chance to explain how whatever resource/time they want/need is committed to another project and try and drop in how much that (mythical) project is earning you. With luck they will then think about how much value you've already provided for nothing but I wouldn't bank on it.
Don's ideas above would work well but not retrospectively.
I never work for nothing. I have been asked in the past to do some programming (which is what I do) for a club and I basically said no, not without payment. I generally just suggest that they will find a hobbyist to do it for nothing. Sadly I think your friends have you in that category.
Keep the friends and do what's fair and then draw a line in sand. But surely in this case the friends are most important. Money is Ok but friendship is priceless.
Mike