Child protection/CRB??


Rataegeoff

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 12:47
I have a problem and hope someone has a sound answer.

I have a local cheerleader/dance group who are interested in my taking some pictures of their performances.

They have a duty of care to ensure that nothing "inappropriate" can happen with these pictures -they feel that there is a risk of fast shutter speeeds catching action/poses which the eye would not really have time to see.

As a school governor I understand where they are coming from and also that a CRB check is not a watertight answer.

I would never be left alone with the children - it is just that "fear" that the group leader needs to be reassured about concerning action freezes.

Anyone got any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks

Geoff
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Tooks

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 12:55
I think issues like this can only ever be solved by communication, and a lot of it!

For starters, the parents of all the children should be engaged to ensure they are ok with it.

Where are the pictures likely to end up? Are they for promotional material, websites, or for the children/parents themselves?

I would also suggest offering complete editorial control over what images get used to the group leader? You then need to agree that any others are deleted etc?

That way, if any innapropriate/unflattering images are captured, then they will never see the light of day.

The bottom line though, is that a certain amount of trust will need to be placed with you, the photographer, and without that it can't work.

johnriley

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 12:56
My opinion is that much of this is blown out of all proportion - in a normal world nobody would imagine that anything inappropriate would possibly happen to such images as you propose. In an abnormal world I would expect that still nothing would happen because those suspect parties will be up to much worse and won't be at all interested in what you are doing.

So it's matter of common sense. Get agreement from those concerned. Let them see all the images. Delete any they don't want circulated. Then just relax and do the job well.

That's what I'd do anyway, so I hope it helps!
Best regards, John

Gwyn

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 13:11
What is the world coming to?
What do they expect you to capture using a fast shutter speed? I cannot imagine there would be anything to interest any perverts in this world - they have access to all the most awful photos they could ever want to see.

If the group want photos taken they have to trust the photographer - there is nothing to stop a less than honest one from making copies of the photos before showing them for editorial purposes after all.

Common sense must be applied, as John says - by the group leader especially.

Good luck!

George Lazarette

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 13:23
Walk away. These people are paranoid.

G
Keywords: Charming, polite, and generally agreeable.

George Lazarette

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 13:27
Also, I am really not sure what people think they are doing make sex objects out of young girls. Cheer-leading should be for 18 year-olds only.

This is a very tacky American phenomenon and when it involves youngsters has no place in a civilised society.

Thinking about it, I can see why they are paranoid. They are looking into their own dark souls.

G
Keywords: Charming, polite, and generally agreeable.

ttk

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 13:33
johnriley wrote:
My opinion is that much of this is blown out of all proportion - in a normal world nobody would imagine that anything inappropriate would possibly happen to such images as you propose. In an abnormal world I would expect that still nothing would happen because those suspect parties will be up to much worse and won't be at all interested in what you are doing.

So it's matter of common sense. Get agreement from those concerned. Let them see all the images. Delete any they don't want circulated. Then just relax and do the job well.

That's what I'd do anyway, so I hope it helps!

Gwyn wrote:
What is the world coming to?
What do they expect you to capture using a fast shutter speed? I cannot imagine there would be anything to interest any perverts in this world - they have access to all the most awful photos they could ever want to see.

If the group want photos taken they have to trust the photographer - there is nothing to stop a less than honest one from making copies of the photos before showing them for editorial purposes after all.

Common sense must be applied, as John says - by the group leader especially.

Good luck!

I agree with these two Quote's here, Blown out of proportion Yes, BTW if the Cheerleader and alike (Parents) are worried about what the girls are/will be showing as photos are taken then the uniforms (skirts) are to short.
I have never been asked to fill out a CRB for this sort of photography, and if that day comes....as G L has said... above I will Walk Away..
Tel,

Reuben0

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 14:03
I'm 100% in agreement with George and I wouldn't get involved.

This is supposed to be a fun hobby after all!

R

beakynet

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 14:09
The group leader needs to take control of the process - you take the pictures during the event and then the group leader should sit down with you and vet ALL the pictures, deleting any they are not happy with.

As a matter of precaution, it might be a good idea for all the parents of the members of the group to sign that they are happy for you to be taking pictures. Also, this might be required if the performance is taking place on Council premisis such as a school or sports facility. Of course any published should have a model release form so that parental signature should form this.

Anyway, the eye is very quick, unless you are shooting at over 60 frames a second, the images are not likely to show what the eye did not see - the issue is that it would freeze it. Anyway, I guess these performances are public.

Another though is insurance for yourself - public liamility insurance, what do others here think about that?
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Last Edited by beakynet on 21/11/2008 - 14:10

Tooks

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 14:39
It all sounds very sensible to me beakynet.

I know it's tempting to just shrug your shoulders and 'walk away' from any photography like this, but the basic things you need to agree up front are really not that onerous.

It's a shame that we have to do it, but that's the society we live in now. Unfortunately, the liability issues for schools/councils/voluntary groups who do not insist on the most basic of precautions where photography of children is concerned are massive.

It may be rare, but if those innocent images ended up somewhere they shouldn't be, then the repercussions can be huge, albeit with no chance of any actual harm coming to the children, as clearly these wouldn't be abusive images.

Sadly, people who want to get close to children for the wrong reasons have been shown to be extremely devious, and make full use of innocent situations like 'just taking photos' to do just that.

Over reaction? Maybe, but organisations can't take the chance I'm afraid.

fatspider

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 15:13
Quote:
As a school governor I understand where they are coming from and also that a CRB check is not a watertight answer.

As a School Govenor surely you should already be CRB checked?

...and as such you are deemed "safe" to work with children and vulnerable people, your integrity should be under no suspicion whatsoever. True, the CRB check is not always a 100% safeguard but people should give you the benefit of the doubt, otherwise whats the point in having them.

I assume there will be other adults present while you are photographing so I cant really see a problem, I do agree with others replys regarding signed permission from parents though.
My Names Alan, and I'm a lensaholic.
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beakynet

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 15:27
As far as I am aware CRB checks are requested by an employer and are carried out under a bourough or local authority, this would mean that you are approved to work with children and people at risk within that Borough/Council and the results are returned to the perspective employer.

More guidance on this can be found at Criminal Records Bureau.
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Daniel Bridge

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 15:48
CRB checks are only required if you regularly work unsupervised/unaccompanied with children. For a one-off photography thing this would not be required. The CRB take a dim view of organisations submitting unnecessary requests for checks.

Each new employer should carry out new checks, even if they're within the same borough.

Dan
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Don

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 15:54
Most predators find thier victims on the internet these days.
Single mother, social networking sites, likes to party, low income, photos of her kids online.....
Develope a relationship with the mother, get access to her kids and her kids friends.

So why not demand that the group leaders have background checks on any boyfriends, spouses etc, that want to watch the events? you'd have to ban every cell phone video cam, and camera, have everybody consent to a background check, and hell while you're at it, strip search em all to make sure nobody's smuggling a camera in.

I'd tell them they need to re-think how they're dressing these kids for public display.

Me? I'd be insulted. A simple agreement on end usage (ie, Nobody may copy or redistribute ANY images without written consent of BOTH parties) should be all that is required.
Fired many shots. Didn't kill anything.
Last Edited by Don on 21/11/2008 - 15:59

gartmore

Link Posted 21/11/2008 - 16:04
Geoff,

I've mentioned this before. My wife is a choregrapher and dance teacher, when two hundred parents were approached and asked if they would object to their child's picture being used for publicity purposes only one objected and it turns out she ticked the wrong box. So, in general terms, I dont think parents have a problem with photographs.

In Scotland, and I imagine other parts of the UK will be the same, you need a Disclosure check if you will be working alone with children or vulnerable adults and each employer you have requires a separate check. So I have ones for both colleges where I teach. You can work in the colleges without a check as long as someone with one is present, I think this is college policy and not law.

So, to your cheerleaders: presumably they are wearing clothes, and those clothes are approved by both their parents and their teachers. What can a camera reveal that the human eye/imagination can't?

Perhaps there is something inherently tacky and inappropriate in what they are doing anyway, walk away.

Ken
Ken
“We must avoid however, snapping away, shooting quickly and without thought, overloading ourselves with unnecessary images that clutter our memory and diminish the clarity of the whole.” - Henri Cartier-Bresson -
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