Boycott?

I believe the blame was not with the farmers, but with the feed manufacturers.

This is a very good watch. The Poison Squad

John

An excellent point Jonathan-Mac, but we have the choice of what to eat and can avoid those problems by so doing. A virulent virus OTH is indiscriminate, and I believe some of the most devastating pandemics namely Hong Kong flu, Asian flu and Spanish flu originated from the same region. That in itself isn’t a reason to condemn but the practices of exploiting wild and endangered species in cruel and needless ways in unhygienic conditions certainly is.

Robert (RobL): in general I agree with you. I have been trying to avoid Chinese-made goods for two or three years now, by looking for alternatives. It is, as Gwyn says, not always possible. Some time ago I failed to find a USB keyboard or mouse that was not made in China; even that Great American Company Microsoft seem to get their branded hardware made in China.

This has been discussed in the consumer magazine Which? on-line discussion pages, where people have pointed out that complex manufactured items (eg: cameras) will probably be assembled from components sourced who-knows-where. On the other hand, it is often possible to find non-oriental items of simpler hardware. For example, I needed a new kitchen paring knife last year. John Lewis had a decent-looking one for about £8 but it was made in China. I enquired about alternatives, and they showed me an almost identical one made in Sheffield. I bought it, though it was twice the price. Similar experience recently with need for a new frying pan. Most of them made in China, but JL did stock French-made Tefal ones. Good.

I have been doing this hunt for non-oriental items for some time, not just because of Covid-19, endangered species and global warming. It is clear that Chinese factories can supply things to virtually all British retail outlets cheaper than these retailers can buy from British manufacturers. Retailers are hard-nosed businesses and they won't stock what won't sell. It is us, the shopping public, who chose largely on price, who have caused Chinese factories to put so many home industries out of business.

The ceramics factories have been specially hard hit, I noticed a Portmerion mug, very pretty in traditional Portmerion decoration - "Made in China" on the bottom. Exactly the same with an attractive William Morris style pottery mug in a nice gift box, sold by the Victoria & Albert souvenier shop!

Some people have little choice but to buy what is most affordable. I am fortunate in not being severely constrained so I always try to check where something is made, and try to buy a British or European made version.

Thanks Martin, given the massive economic growth there and subsequent affluence I wonder how long they will keep wages and thus prices so low. It is sad to see old established firms resort to outsourcing in order to stay afloat whereas the reality is they only have their brand name left.

Flu viruses are continually mutating and exchanging genes as they are passed among humans and other animals. Have a look here link for how the virus that caused the 2009 swine flu pandemic came about. It's a long, complicated evolution through many parts of the world and over almost a century. No single country was 'responsible'. It wouldn't be surprising if the history of the Covid-19 virus is equally complicated. By all means boycot Chinese goods and services if you wish. However, please also recognise that the origin of a new virus in humans is usually not a simple story that allows blame to be assigned to any country, practices or part of the world. Personally, I think it sensible to wait for the scientific detective work to be done before declaring a 'guilty' verdict.

Steve

The low-wage economy certainly launched the massive Chinese industrial economy. Nowadays I am not so sure that this still gives them the advantage. I think it is probable that because their industrial development has been fast and recent, their factories may be operating more efficiently than ours, with more robots, more automation.

Britain dominated the ship-building industry during the 1930s. In spite of wartime destruction it still held this advantage in the immediate post-war years. Shipyard owners were complacent, still used the pre-war machinery and accepted the traditional labour structure. They did not see any need to change to newer, faster, more economical ways of building ships, and consequently they were slowly displaced by modern shipyards elsewhere, including the far east. Many of these yards were starting almost from scratch, having had most of their machinery destroyed in the war. They soon overtook our older, slower, costlier ways.

Martin.

No wonder the good people of Newcastle have very little time for Mike Ashley. Sports Direct, who own House of Fraser, is now called the Fraser Group; HoF went into Admin about 2 years ago.

We're straying a bit here from Pentax photography and we do try to avoid Politics and Religion on this site. Those are the sort of things that rouse strong emotions and can cause a lot of conflict on a forum, which is why we don't do them.

Don't forget we have a nice, warm Pointless Thread for anything off topic, but still no Politics or Religion.....

Meanwhile, stay safe everyone.

Whilst not doubting the sincerity of the views expressed here, nor challenging the right of the individuals concerned to hold them, it is important to remember that the spread of the current pandemic is a consequence of the widespread, uncritical adoption by governments and trading blocks of unfettered, global, free-market economics.

The last time I checked, the Chinese were not responsible for the formulation and export of this 'one-size fits all' economic model, although they have become highly skilled at exploiting its more obvious flaws to their advantage with, it has to be said, the active, and in many instances craven, collusion of successive world governments, including our own.

Jon

I hope John Riley will allow me to answer this point from an economic rather than a political perspective whilst acknowledging that the two are deeply intertwined.

The Spanish flu of 1918 killed 50 million people worldwide. Free market economics as we know them today were but a dream in that time.

The current (but set to change drastically I feel and hope) free market economic model has brought millions out of poverty, given most in society a better standard of living and equally importantly improved the health of us all. Like most things that are "free", this means that the pendulum has swung too far in the free direction and I feel that in the decade to come we shall move a little back toward the "control" side of said pendulum especially with regard to public sector employees (NHS; care workers; emergency services etc), and that is essential in my mind.

The Chinese government have simple aims. To use the free market of the western world to grow their economy, enrich their population, and to increase their standing as a world power. They have achieved all this in the last 20 years without changing their political demographic at home. They are playing the west's game without having to answer to their people.

China has become incredibly wealthy as a result. Unlike N Korea or Russia for example who both have appallingly bad economies. I agree that the west has bent over backwards to assist China in these goals, and to a large part have benefited enormously from it. However they have also created a monster and there is no turning back.

[/quote][/quote]I read your measured post with interest, Peter, and came to the conclusion that our views on this issue are not that different and certainly not in opposition.

As you rightly point out, the philosophy of global, free market economics had yet to emerge at the time of the 1918 H1N1 flu pandemic. Like COVID-19, however, the truly, at that time, unprecedented scale of the H1N1 pandemic was linked to the mass movements of peoples from essentially all continents to sustain a global war effort followed by their incarceration in high density encampments with, by current standards, inadequate sanitation and health care facilities and their subsequent repatriation to their places of origin.

In the context of the discussion that has taken place in this thread, it is worthy of note that, whilst acknowledging that it cannot be proven with absolute certainty, the most likely origin of the the pandemic was North America.

Reading even a selection of the articles published in 2018 to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the H1N1 flu pandemic proves a salutary experience. Especially with regard to the oft repeated claim by our elected representatives that the consequences of the current Covid-19 pandemic could not have been foreseen, let alone prepared for.

The following may prove of interest to all that have contributed to this thread and, given the primary focus of the forum, include contemporaneous photographic images.

link

link

link

Best

Jon

Given that ,Virus jumps from an animal to human species.

And , in order to prevent another Global Pandemic ,

And given , that all animal husbandry has around d the world has issues.

Is a Vegetarian/Vegan diet the way forward.

Regards