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Another new website

RobL
Posted 10/02/2023 - 17:31 Link
A short while ago I posted a few snaps of runners here which received generous comments. Anyhow this has developed somewhat with lots more photos, and whilst at a Parkrun recently the organisers said they would like me to send photos to them. A local running club whose members also featured said the same thing so rather than spending time sorting through hundreds of photos and posting them out I had the idea of putting them together on a dedicated website: link.

The Parkrun group posted this on Facebook only for Parkrun HQ to require it taken down, they don't want runners having images on social media when they don't wish to (fair enough), but they didn't realise I was a "professional" photographer who charges for work (actually just for prints which is fair I think) and they don't want to encourage other photographers at their runs. This is in contrast to the many runners who wave and smile when they see the camera as well as the attendees who welcomed me.

Next up I went to a big running event last weekend and whilst at the finish line some posed for their photos, but not expecting this I had no means of giving them contact details. As several were wearing club vests I sent the photos to each club later asking that they be passed on and in the meantime decided to print cards for handing out in the future. Not one of them has had the courtesy to reply thanking me so having processed each photo, spent time finding contact details which many clubs don't include on their websites, I am feeling a bit pissed off.
Lubbyman
Posted 10/02/2023 - 21:13 Link
As it happens, I have visitors this weekend who regularly take part in Parkruns and will be doing so while they are here (not with me, I hasten to add!). So I looked up the Parkrun policy on photography at link. It includes "We do not support photographers charging individuals for event photography at parkrun events.". It's worth reading the policy. They are trying to walk a tightrope between on the one hand photographs and social media being good publicity and in any case part of life, on the other hand the need for effective safeguarding, on the third hand the requirements of GDPR, and on the final hand the right to photograph people in a public place.

Steve
cardiffgareth
Posted 10/02/2023 - 22:13 Link
How can they enforce that though? If you are there through being self employed and not contracted by the organisers, and are photographing people within a public space whilst stood on public space, then you can legally photograph anyone you want (within reason).

GDPR from what I know about it, is more about the information you hold on a person(s). On my Terms and Conditions page I have the following:
Quote:
By giving us your email you agree we can send you photography related marketing material.
You may opt-out at any time.
You can ask for your data to be deleted or you can ask for a copy of the data held to be given to you.
You have the “right to be forgotten”. EVERYTHING we hold about you will be totally and utterly deleted from all current systems and previous backups. That includes images both JPEG and RAW files and backups.
Information on what data we hold on you will be given via a PDF document.
All information and data gathered we hold is legal, according to the GDPR regulations to the relevant UK authority – the ICO.
Information will be held seculy on an external NAS Drive that is not connected to the internet and malware protected.
Information we held will only be kept for as long as you need which is 5 years.
Information will only be used for the explicit purpose for which it was collected.

So I think as long as Rob has something like this in his T&C's then he should be covered.

Back to Rob then, I say keep going, don't let the capitalists win. You are there in a self employed capacity as a member of the public and not linked to the event. You can legally photograph the runners and there is nothing to stop you advertising in the way of a branded top, business cards etc on the day or contacting the clubs with links.
If your website has E-Commerce - you could even add a tick box when completing a sale for 'remove image', or, in your T&C's you could say that images are held on the website for a period of X time and on a secure hard drive for X time, before they are then deleted?

Reading the ParkRun T&C's that Steve gave, I see they have a
Quote:
volunteer photographer in attendance. This is someone who is taking photographs or videos for inclusion in Parkrun communication channels.

So, one could assume they don't want any other photographers muscling in, and I note the official photographer is just a volunteer, not paid I hasten to add, but a volunteer. Well this shows how much they value photography as a trade! I wonder if they make the volunteer photographer sign a contract as further within their T&C's they say:
Quote:
Delete images from their personal devices as soon as practical, having transferred those images securely to the event team.

As copyright is with the content creator, that being the photographer, they have no right to make such a demand, unless a contract is drawn up by both the organisers and the volunteer photographer.

Rob, take a look at my T&C's as you need something on your website as currently you don't have owt!
Gareth Williams ARPS

My outfit: K1ii - Pentax D FA 24-70mm f2.8 - Pentax DA* 300mm f4 - Pentax modified DA* 60-250mm f4 - Irix 15mm Firefly - Pentax FA 35mm - FA 50mm f1.4 - Tamron SP 90mm macro - Pentax AF 540 FGZ II

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RobL
Posted 10/02/2023 - 22:42 Link
Thanks Lubbyman and Gareth, this started off as a personal project and wasn’t intended as a commercial venture. I only sent the website link to Parkrun because they asked me to send photos; I did have a condition, since deleted, that photos were for personal use only and if wanted for editorial use then a price would be negotiated. That of course would preclude Parkrun from using the images but I didn’t anticipate them posting on Facebook but just circulating to members. Anyhow their response is effectively saying I am not welcome so I shall stay away and just cover the organised events like marathons.
Edited by RobL: 10/02/2023 - 22:53
cardiffgareth
Posted 10/02/2023 - 22:46 Link
I'd still get some T&Cs up on the website buddy.

Also, your images are pretty large on your website. I was able to download a 2000px longest edge image which is enough pixels for someone to download and make a print from. All mine are 800px max so they're good for screen viewing but not big enough to print with.

Reconsider stepping away. You've done nothing wrong!
Gareth Williams ARPS

My outfit: K1ii - Pentax D FA 24-70mm f2.8 - Pentax DA* 300mm f4 - Pentax modified DA* 60-250mm f4 - Irix 15mm Firefly - Pentax FA 35mm - FA 50mm f1.4 - Tamron SP 90mm macro - Pentax AF 540 FGZ II

Welsh Photographer
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Foundation NFT
RobL
Posted 10/02/2023 - 23:17 Link
Gareth, I will let you into a secret: I am aiming to compile a panel of images for a Fellowship application to the RPS depicting the determination and range of emotions involved. Not all these are on the website as the subjects could be offended at having a vulnerable moment out there for all to see - extremes of joy, tears and despair are all there. The RPS requires digital copies to be of a certain size for viewing at 100% on a computer screen even if prints are submitted, so I have got into the habit of filing pdfs to meet the criteria. The website was a spur of the moment idea and not really thought through, an offshoot of the main purpose and never intended as a commercial venture. If running clubs and individuals want to use them that’s fine, payback as it were for being the subjects of my project. It would just be nice though if they said thanks for sending them.
Edited by RobL: 10/02/2023 - 23:19
RobL
Posted 11/02/2023 - 09:00 Link
cardiffgareth wrote:
I'd still get some T&Cs up on the website buddy.

Also, your images are pretty large on your website. I was able to download a 2000px longest edge image which is enough pixels for someone to download and make a print from. All mine are 800px max so they're good for screen viewing but not big enough to print with.

Reconsider stepping away. You've done nothing wrong!

Thanks Gareth, I will heed your advice; I have started substituting the images with smaller files which is quick and straightforward if rather tedious, and will look at T&Cs. You are right, I am being criticised for publishing Parkrun images when it was the organiser who chose to put them on Facebook not myself, they were offered for their own use as they saw fit.
Posted 11/02/2023 - 10:49 Link
Outstanding and informative thread.
Be well, stay safe, but most of all, invest in memories
cardiffgareth
Posted 11/02/2023 - 12:05 Link
Quote:
having a vulnerable moment out there for all to see - extremes of joy, tears and despair are all there.

These are the images that will be the stand out ones! I think as your photographing the public in public and there is no financial benefit to you, you may not need their consent in the form of model releases but I'd enquire first to safeguard yourself

Quote:
You are right, I am being criticised for publishing Parkrun images when it was the organiser who chose to put them on Facebook not myself, they were offered for their own use as they saw fit.

Maybe yours were superior to their official tog hence their reaction?!
Gareth Williams ARPS

My outfit: K1ii - Pentax D FA 24-70mm f2.8 - Pentax DA* 300mm f4 - Pentax modified DA* 60-250mm f4 - Irix 15mm Firefly - Pentax FA 35mm - FA 50mm f1.4 - Tamron SP 90mm macro - Pentax AF 540 FGZ II

Welsh Photographer
Flickr
Instagram
My PPG
Foundation NFT
RobL
Posted 11/02/2023 - 12:18 Link
Thanks again Gareth, model releases are only needed for commercial use and the major stock companies do not require them for editorial use so I am pretty safe there. Anyhow I have no way of contacting most of the subjects and the prints will only be viewed by a handful of judges and a small audience.
cardiffgareth
Posted 11/02/2023 - 12:36 Link
Jobs a good one then!!
Gareth Williams ARPS

My outfit: K1ii - Pentax D FA 24-70mm f2.8 - Pentax DA* 300mm f4 - Pentax modified DA* 60-250mm f4 - Irix 15mm Firefly - Pentax FA 35mm - FA 50mm f1.4 - Tamron SP 90mm macro - Pentax AF 540 FGZ II

Welsh Photographer
Flickr
Instagram
My PPG
Foundation NFT
Lubbyman
Posted 11/02/2023 - 19:53 Link
Just to clarify the Parkrun situation, I checked with my Parkrunning visitors who say that Parkruns are organised entirely by volunteers (which is why the official photographer is a volunteer), there is no charge for running, necessary costs are met from sponsors and donations (it's all on the website, too). The voluntary nature of it might be why they are sensititive to people trying to make money from taking photographs, however well intentioned.

Steve
RobL
Posted 11/02/2023 - 22:38 Link
Thanks Lubbyman, it was their “official” photographer who asked for my photos and posted my link on Facebook. They could have downloaded medium size files which was my intention but I have reduced these now to minimum size files following Gareth’s advice. I understand and empathise with Parkrun’s approach but it was the accusation that I was not being honest and wanting to profit from the event that rankled.

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