Another Arrest

Following that up , my attention was drawn to this

http://www.bindmans.com/index.php?id=672

That is one of the most blatant misuses of police authority so far. Fortunately this journalist has the might of the NUJ and a specialist law firm behind her - there is no way the police can get out of this. I'm sure senior officers at the Met will come down heavily on the offending officers.
What's worrying here is that had this been an amateur photographer or tourist with no official backing or knowledge of their rights how would they cope with this level of harassment?
david

Maybe, but why did he have to account for himself in the first place, when there was no real danger that he was a terrorist. If he had been do you think the police would have had a long discussion on the pavement!

Given that is is an international forum, I think it's important for overseas members to understand that this is not a “British” problem but one that's peculiar to England (and theoretically Wales).

I haven't heard of one similar incident in Scotland, although, from a terrorist's point of view, we host the UK's nuclear submarine fleet, nuclear power stations and the country's busiest RAF fast-jet base. I suspect that the PCSOs at the centre of these incidents would be given short shrift if they approached a photographer in Glasgow in the same way that they apparently do in London.

The message is clear. If you want to come to Britain to take photos, check out the VisitScotland website rather than its equivalent in England. At the end of the day, “they” can take away only the rights we are prepared to surrender to them. It must be said that Scots understand the terrorist threat as well as the English – we've been targeted by them.

To those south of the border involved in one of these incidents, my advice would be to be polite, explain what you are doing and, if necessary, insist on your right to do it. Handled properly, none of these high-profile cases should have progressed as far as it did. Many years ago in Canada, I was confronted by several members of the American Indian Movement pointing Winchester rifles at me. After I explained I was just a journalist doing my job and likening their cause to the lot of the Scots under “hammer” of the English (always a useful ploy), we sat down to some drinks and I got my interview.

Having said that, I don't think I'd take very kindly to some moron asking me why I was doing something I'm perfectly entitled to do. Doubtless I'll find out the next time I venture down to London.

Al

I'm a bit of a simpleton.
When I think British, I'm think polite, smart, helpful. Like Mattmatic.
When I think Scotsman, I think scotch, rowdy, fun. Like Galoot.
So forgive my ingnorance, get me some scotch, and plane tickets and I'll fly on over, grab Galoot, get drunk, stage a protest, and call Matt, in the morning when we need some one diplomattmatic to talk us out of a jail cell.

I love this place!

Being 'awkward' with police officers who are abusing their authority is the only way we are going to guard our freedom. Showing ID to a police officer who has no grounds or authority to ask for it is kowtowing to a non existent authority. I have no porblem with assisting any genuine police enquiry, but the fact is, police powers are increasingly being abused on a daily basis. If you want to assist that abuse, then all you have to do is encourage it by complying.

To be honest with you, if some cocky git with a Hitler complex, half my age, chewing gum and looking smug asked me what I was doing, my first reaction would be to tell him where to go! Aren't Police Officers (and I assume PCSOs) public servants? In other words there to serve the public? Don't get me wrong, I have huge respect for all of these people working in the public sector and bringing value to society (as opposed to what I do in IT!), but I do feel that there are lines that MUST not be crossed.

I remember a particular scene in Catch-22 where someone in trouble shouts "Police! Police!" and our hero Yosarain suddenly realises its not a cry for help, but a warning...

Tony

I wouldn't want our overseas colleagues to get the impression this kind of interference with photographers is happening all the time in the UK. As Areo says it doesn't happen in Scotland. A couple of years ago I spent a very happy morning doing street photography in the centre of Dundee with lots of police patroling around me and they didn't take one bit of notice. But I also do this in England and spend hours in the city centres of Newcastle and Durham, and I've visited cities such as Manchester and Birmingham and I've never once been challenged there. Even in London I spent a couple of hours taking photographs at the Eurostar station of St Pancras on my way to Paris and no officer stopped me.
But I'm not condoning the excessive use of authority because when it does happen its distressing for the photographer concerned. I agree with the previous comments about remaining polite and co-operative with officers who do stop you and ask questions. If you get their backs up it won't help.
david
PS Bear in mind that terrorism does happen and we wouldn't thank our police for failing to act on their suspicions and allowed lives to be lost in an attack.

Well I'm fed up reading about enough incidences like this, that I'll have to avoid travelling there for a while...

If I found myself in a confrontation like that, I would react badly. A warrant will be the least of his concerns, he's gonna need a proctologist to retrieve my camera if he wants to see what is on it.

Well said that man! I think these incidents are extremely rare, and almost always because of poor training/a jobsworth mentality rather than any general clampdown on photographers. Given that people are taking pictures all the time everywhere in England, these incidents almost never happen, and when they do it makes the news because they are so rare.

For the most part, I am proud to think the UK police service is relatively benign, particularly compared to the US - where tasering is meted out quite casually by police officers under the most trivial of circumstances, and usually with the support of the general population. They even have TV shows where you are invited to laugh at the hapless twitching victims!

That's a valid point, BUT the concern is that the connection is both tenuous and open to abuse. I mean, who is going to stand up and say they don't believe in measures to stop terrorism? We need checks and balances and PROPER use of REASONABLE and NECESSARY powers. Otherwise we drift towards a police state... (IMHO)

Tony

Well the police chiefs have recently issued clarifications in terms of how these powers should be used - in response to public concerns. That is a positive sign that the heads of the police force understand these issues, even if the odd PO or PCSO doesn't. I think Britain is especially vigilant against an excessive police state, which is why these issues make the headlines. I would say we have less 'unconditional respect' for law enforcers than other countries 'across the pond' from my experience chatting to American friends about taser abuse, armed police etc. Canada isn't immune either, although I note there was widespread public outcry over this event: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6hA46GmLA

I'm totally with everyone who has expressed outrage over the treatment of photographers by the police, but I worry about the impression of Britain we create for our overseas friends. And for the record, I'll take having my photographic rights infringed over being electrocuted to death any day!

Point being, that you shouldn't be having to choose either option

From my personal experience, I've never been stopped by a PCSO or Police Officer while taking photo's around London, but I have taken the precaution of printing out a copy of the "Photographers Rights", and will vigorously, but politely, defend my rights in the face of illegal requests.

Having seen many of these photographer V police situations, they all seem to stem from some idiot security person who has no idea of the laws of this country. Take the security guy at the Gherkin (spelling??)He clearly does not know the law yet, had hesitation in calling the police, who then having received the call have to investigate it, I feel if I was in a similar situation as soon as the security guy called the police, I would also be calling them to report a case of harassment & wasting police time. I also liked the irony in the way both police & security claim it is an iconic building, surely this even more of a reason for people to photograph it, bhoth tourist & UK citizens!!!

The italian girl was absolutely right to stand up to that idiot PCSO. He clearly had no idea about what he can & cannot do, I certainly would have pointed out to him it is a crime to impersonate an officer which is what he was doing. Under the PCSO specifications laid out their basic rights are the same as you & me along with being able to issue fines for dog fouling. There are certain laws which local authorities have allowed PCSOs to carry out, but these are for very minor offences usually. We also now have the problem with Community Support officers who are employed by the council & they are different kettle of fish altogether & you will need to look at the local council website to see their remit.

Until a dodgy bullying PCSO is brought to court for impersonating an officer then these situations will surely continue. Unfortunately all that will happen is they will lose their job which will go unreported, so the problems will just continue.

I think that some people are rather missing the point here. I am tempted to say that out police are still some of the best in the world, anthough they would be hard put indeed to match trhe level of professionalism I have seen for myself in some USA forces.

The problem is that well known thin end of the wedge. There are so many signs that abuses of power are increasing. Legislation is becoming more onerous and unfair, and the standard of police officers at all ranks is failing.

The unpleasant fact is, the mechanism for instituting a police state is now in place. All it needs is the right circumstances where the wrong politician feels able to pick up the reins, and we're away. In a very British manner, mind you. It won't be obvious, but it's there all the same.