An evolutionary dead end?


i-Berg

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 07:44
Well worth a read:
link

And the Ricoh extract from those interviews with the major makers at this expo:

"The only manufacturer we spoke to in Japan that appeared uninterested in talking about mirrorless development was Ricoh. I suspect that this is partly strategic and partly also driven by necessity. The R&D resources required to tool up and launch a new system into (presumably, before too long) a crowded market may simply be prohibitive - especially given that the company has only recently started to dip its toes into full-frame digital.

At least for now, it looks as if we can expect little more from Ricoh than consolidation of the existing K-series DSLR lineup and probably a GR II successor of some kind, at some point in the future. A proportion of die-hard Pentax fans will be disappointed by this, but I expect that many simply wonít care. The K-1 II and the imminent arrival of a new 50mm F1.4 represent (at least) a continued investment in the companyís core user-base, and that's probably enough to keep the loyalists happy for now."



For now...
http://www.pbase.com/iberg

Algernon

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 08:24
I can't see why you have to re-post rubbish from Depressing Review here

Nikon, Canon etc. all using mirrorless at the 2020 Olympic Games What absolute nonsense. No photographers would risk not using tried and tested DSLR's at such an important event.

This is what Canon will have at the 2020 Olympics....
http://www.lightnfocus.com/canon-camera-room-rio-olympics-beautiful-thing-youll-...


--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber

Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff

Algi
Last Edited by Algernon on 10/04/2018 - 08:28

RobL

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 08:46
Mirrorless isnít the holy grail so many claim; it is an overcrowded market and Canon have said they are expanding in that field in the face of competition from Sony. I have tried several bodies and found none I would swap from DSLR for, even the Hasselblad viewfinder image is juddery when you pan, and the likes of Olympus are like squinting through a tiny keyhole in comparison. The only benefit of lighter weight diminishes as the sensor gets larger and the lenses grow accordingly, and then you have all those extra batteries to carry. Leica are still successfully producing rangefinder bodies when everyone else dropped these years ago but no-one is condemning them for it.

It would be good to see Pentax developing its medium format bodies as it already has a good range of MF lenses. The Hasselblad and Fujifilm MF mirrorless are serious challengers but have a tiny range of lenses so a radical body from Pentax would take the ground if not left too late.

LennyBloke

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 08:58
RobL wrote:
Mirrorless isnít the holy grail so many claim.....

I couldn't agree more!

I regularly take a peak at the offerings from other manufacturers and while I'm being told that Mirrorless is the way forward and EVF's are so good nowadays, I still find the DSLR viewfinder so much more comfortable to use. As for size and weight, well I can of course see the benefits of the smaller systems - but while I can manage a K1 and a few lenses (or the K5iis) I'm more than happy to do so
LennyBloke

Algernon

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 10:27
The trend with mirrorless seems to be make them bigger to look like a DSLR


The Panasonic DC GH5S iis HUGE for Four Thirds camera. It dwarfs a K-5> The attraction of mirrorless and 4/3 was supposed to be that they were smaller

http://camerasize.com/compare/#373,727

--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber

Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff

Algi

richandfleur

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 10:53
On the flip side, I do get the appeal of the whatyouseeiswhatyouget nature of mirrorless.

On landscapes especially, live view is much more useful than an optical viewfinder. Focussing aids like focus peaking and digital zoom are excellent for manual focus work.

Tracking AF across a full sensor (and not just a group of points in the middle) appeals.

I can see it from both sides. Both have as much in common than different really, as itís still a mechanical shutter camera.

Pros and cons. I much prefer viewing the final output, and donít really care much how it was achieved.

MrB

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 11:32
Would it be technically possible to give the user a choice of OVF or EVF through the same viewfinder? (That is, in a DSLR.)

Philip
Last Edited by MrB on 10/04/2018 - 11:34

Algernon

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 11:38
It's certainly not 'whatyouseeiswhatyouget' Which mirrorless camera has anything approaching a 4K display

With optical displays you see everything right down to specks of dust hairs etc.

I would like to see MF improved and it could be done very easily and quickly by taking the BEEP and GREEN hexagon light to the next level. It's already mm accurate but needs lens data to be stored in a lookup table.

--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber

Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff

Algi

RobL

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 15:01
richandfleur wrote:
On the flip side, I do get the appeal of the whatyouseeiswhatyouget nature of mirrorless.

On landscapes especially, live view is much more useful than an optical viewfinder. Focussing aids like focus peaking and digital zoom are excellent for manual focus work.

Tracking AF across a full sensor (and not just a group of points in the middle) appeals.

I can see it from both sides. Both have as much in common than different really, as itís still a mechanical shutter camera.

Pros and cons. I much prefer viewing the final output, and donít really care much how it was achieved.

Seriously? Shutter speed, aperture and ISO irrelevant then? What I donít get with a mirrorless viewfinder is that unless the exposure is approximately right you wonít see anything, so a problem for manual, and in dark conditions you will get a lot of noise. And for focusing I wish they would bring back the split ring and other focus assists used before autofocus, much better than focus peaking with which I achieve better results by switching off. I know I keep mentioning the Hasselblad MF as it was very seductive (and £2000 off at TPS!) but the much vaunted bright viewfinder is no better than the prism view on any Pentax DSLR. Maybe one day they will be as good as optical viewfinders but definitely a long way to go yet.

McBrian

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 18:55
If any manufacture can develop an electronic split screen overlay for an optical viewfinder I would be first in the queue.
Iíll stay with an OVF for now, I can't see a 4K/8K EVF being developed and affordable for some time, as it is I really donít see any advantage in interchangeable lens cameras with an EVF over an OVF.

The mirrorless crowd are being swept along by the marketing machine, EVFís are here because it makes the camera cheaper to manufacture, a saving that will never be passed on to the consumer.
Cheers
Brian.
LBA is good for you, a Lens a day helps you work, rest and play.
Last Edited by McBrian on 10/04/2018 - 18:56

DOIK

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 20:03
Algernon wrote:

With optical displays you see everything right down to specks of dust hairs etc.--

Try cleaning the muck out of the viewfinder

Last year I bought a new FF Sony & kit lens for just over £600. I have no regrets at all. The kit lens is slow but sharp, the EVF is a bit clunky and the shutter is loud..........but I love it.

John

Don

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 20:18
like it or not video is as important as stills to many users especially pros.

I have opted to not replace my pentax gear as it wears out or becomes obsolete.
this coming from a guy who was loyal for over 35 years and many cameras over the years.
sadly it is too cost prohibitive to run multiple camera systems for my work and hobbies that all centre around creating both stills and video.

I have not upgraded from my k3.
this is a little heartbreaking but necessary.
I just bought the Sony Hxr-Nx80 video camera for 4k shooting, and have sony mirrorless and compact cameras coming soon. I just gave up.
I'll be buying a pk adapter for the sony mirrorless, until my lenses are all replaced eventually as well.

I really like the k1 and would have bought one instead of the sony camcorder IF it could put out some pro level video codecs.
I used to make money selling to magazines, but now the money is in film work, magazines are dead and dying.
Fired many shots. Didn't kill anything.
Last Edited by Don on 10/04/2018 - 20:19

RobL

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 20:31
Don wrote:
like it or not video is as important as stills to many users especially pros.

I have opted to not replace my pentax gear as it wears out or becomes obsolete.
this coming from a guy who was loyal for over 35 years and many cameras over the years.
sadly it is too cost prohibitive to run multiple camera systems for my work and hobbies that all centre around creating both stills and video.

I have not upgraded from my k3.

this is a little heartbreaking but necessary.
I just bought the Sony Hxr-Nx80 video camera for 4k shooting, and have sony mirrorless and compact cameras coming soon. I just gave up.
I'll be buying a pk adapter for the sony mirrorless, until my lenses are all replaced eventually as well.

I really like the k1 and would have bought one instead of the sony camcorder IF it could put out some pro level video codecs.
I used to make money selling to magazines, but now the money is in film work, magazines are dead and dying.

Sorry to hear that Don, I feel that a camera designed ergonomically and functionally as a stills body is a compromise for video use and vice versa. Surely for pro use a dedicated video body would be the best option? That would leave another system for stills.

wvbarnes

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 21:31
Personally although I pop into look at DPR from time to time I've never felt it true independent journalism under Amazon. The big makes pay a lot of money with loaned stock to get into big cabinets in our few remaining camera stores, at least that is what salesmen tell me. I bet they also pay Amazon shed loads to plug what they want.

I bought a K5, then a K3 and now a K3II late to get superb value. I love the little prime lenses and have had great success with the first fast focusing PLM magnetic aperture 55 - 300 mm Good innovation. I enjoy my photography with Pentax and long live real viewfinders with better overlays by all means down the line.

I don't do video on it. i don't use the Live View. I do use a little Canon G7X for photographing the grand kids. Perhaps a Q with a one inch sensor might work? A GRII would appeal to some BUT it is a shrinking market. Blame smart phones and their happy snappy users. 110 Instamatics all over again.

richandfleur

Link Posted 10/04/2018 - 23:29
RobL wrote:
Surely for pro use a dedicated video body would be the best option? That would leave another system for stills.

Several manufacturers are producing products that are good enough at both disciplines now, so the compromise solution is becoming less of an issue in real world terms. The release of Sonys A7iii for the same price as the Pentax K-1 is quite an eye opener when comparing features, especially in areas where video is required.

McBrian wrote:
If any manufacture can develop an electronic split screen overlay for an optical viewfinder I would be first in the queue.

Check out the Fuji Hybrid viewfinder that is available on a few of their models. It's one take on how this could look, and it will be interesting to see this concept on a DSLR. Don't think the Fuji's are through the lens optical viewfinders, so not directly applicable to DSLR, but a cool concept.

RobL wrote:
Seriously? Shutter speed, aperture and ISO irrelevant then?

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are referring to here?
Both DSLR and Mirrorless cameras have exposure control options for shutter speed, aperture and ISO settings.

RobL wrote:
What I donít get with a mirrorless viewfinder is that unless the exposure is approximately right you wonít see anything, so a problem for manual, and in dark conditions you will get a lot of noise.

There are different modes you can set for some/most? EVF options, so you can configure EVF's to show you something (like an optical viewfinder on a DSLR) or show you an exposure estimation (similar but more than using the DoF preview button on a DSLR).
In low light you can't see much through an optical viewfinder, so neither methods are ideal really in low light. Whilst an EVF will have a lot of noise, it may be able to 'gain up' more than a DSLR optical viewfinder, maybe...

To be clear, I really like optical viewfinders, and I don't much like EVF's. It's a personal thing, but I can also see benefits to the mirrorless approach. Both styles have pros and cons, and both have an awful lot in common. As before, they are tools, and I enjoy images created either way. Personally I'd like to see Pentax do something about their 2012 spec video offering, before they set about trying to develop a mirrorless camera line. We've seen in Dons comment above that this is a real consideration for consumers now.
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