Theorizing about future product.

"Somebody" "somewhere" "mentioned" that a higher end DSLR between the 645 and the K10D was being worked on - a lesser model too, but that's for another thread.

A larger sensor for this camera was supposed.

If this is indeed true, perhaps the [K1D] would use a 645 lens mount to cover the area of the larger sensor?

And the DA series of lenses will be made for the K10D and future 1:1.53 crop DSLR's.

I wonder if it's possible that I love theorizing?

The upcoming DA* lenses are apparently designed with an image circle that only overs an APS-C sensor. This would seem to suggest that Pentax don't intend using a larger sensor in the short-medium term.

lots of people in lots of places are loudly proclaiming that because Pentax, and other makers, are currently making lenses with image circles only suitable for the APS sensor that this is some kind of 'sure sign' that sensor size will not change.

What seems to me to be massively overlooked is;

1) All of these makers used to make full inventories of lenses to cover the much larger image circle of 35mm. Some of these were very high quality lenses indeed and the technology could hardly have been lost. Various plant and manufacturing facility for these lens ranges almost certainly still exist.

2) The lens ranges for APS sensors have, by and large, only included the relatively simple lenses so far,...why? There have been a remarkable lack of specific APS, or 'D' lenses in either wide-angle or specialist computations.

3) The market 'leader' is Canon and they offer 'full-frame' sensor cameras with more to follow. If other makers want to chase the leader, and at least two have publically made announcements to do so, then they have to follow.

4) At least 2 makers other than Canon (Sony and Nikon) have hinted or been attached to very strong rumours of full-frame / larger sensors.

"...... perhaps the [K1D] would use a 645 lens mount to cover the area of the larger sensor? ...."

Well no, it would hardly need to as the pentax K mount is itself a throw back to 'full-frame' cameras in the shape of previous Pentax 35mm models.

When the first APS sesor cameras appeared there was much talk about how lenses could be much smaller physically,....bye and large, this has not happened and apart from the 'four thirds' people there have been no new, smaller lens mounts that I am aware of.

If you 'scale-down' an APS DSLR to the same proportions as a 35mm model, using the sensor dimensions as the criteria, then it results in a vey small camera indeed,.....However, the lens mount would have to be quite different and smaller than anything which currently exists.

It's probably only a matter of time, perhaps short time, until one or other maker brings out such a camera as the oriental mind loves ever smaller and complex 'jewels'.....

The technology hasn't been lost, but it has been improved upon. There is very little human input in modern manufacturing, which is why, for instance, the K10D sells for hugely less than the Z1-P, despite being much better made and much more sophisticated.

So it wouldn't be cost effective to make these old lenses in the old way. Over time, they will ALL be replaced, and it won't be a very long time.

The reverse is true. Most of the new lenses are at the wide end, and some are quite complex (12-24, 16-45).

Why? The market leader in 6x7 was Pentax. In 6x6, Hasselblad. In 6x4.5, Pentax. In 110 SLRs, Pentax. In 10x8, Linhof. I didn't see Canon competing.

And how many are they selling? My guess is about 1% of their total DSLR output.

And another maker has announced plans to build an SLR with an even bigger sensor - Pentax and the 645D. That's Pentax's big sensor camera.

Actually it has happened. For the same angle of view, lenses on an APS-C are much smaller than lenses on a 24x36 camera.

Ignoring the rather patronisingly racist overtones in this last paragraph, I would point out that you yourself have conceded that Canon is the market leader. Please let me know which of their products could be described as a "small and complex jewel". My chosen metaphors would include words like "massive" and "brick".

And despite being 100% occidental (mind and body), I have to say that I also like small and complex jewels when it comes to cameras, and so do many others who choose Pentax over Canon.

To me, all your points sound like wishful thinking, not serious analysis.


G

Big fan that I am on Pentax but can you be sure that the market leader for 6x7 and 6x4.5 was Pentax? Remember Mamiya are very strong, and still are, in these segments with the RZ-67 and M645AFD being digitally compatible.

Pentax need to be quick bringing out the 645D if they are to be significantly ahead of the Canon EOS 1Ds Mk3 whenever that appears.

Yes the Eos 1 is a brick, but it's perceived to be the benchmark.

I am happy enough with the APS-C size sensor, as size doesn't matter it's what you do with it....

George,

I stand by what I posted,...however, if you absolutely MUST take everything completely out of context in order to make SOME kind of counter argument then here we go;

"....
The technology hasn't been lost, but it has been improved upon. There is very little human input in modern manufacturing, which is why, for instance, the K10D sells for hugely less than the Z1-P, despite being much better made and much more sophisticated.

Did I say differently.....??

"......So it wouldn't be cost effective to make these old lenses in the old way. Over time, they will ALL be replaced, and it won't be a very long time...."

Did I say it was....??

"....
The reverse is true. Most of the new lenses are at the wide end, and some are quite complex (12-24, 16-45).."

OK,..I should have included the word 'prime'....ther have been a few fancy zooms but serious prime lenses,..especially in wide-angles have NOT appeared in D only configs....as far as I can tell, only Leica/oly/panny have even got a f1.4 'standard' lens, and that only appeared last week at PMA.

"....The market leader in 6x7 was Pentax..."

You have simply ignored the context yet again,....I'm not disputing or even disscussing anything to do with medium format camera systems,...we can go onto that later if you wish but until we do keep to the subject please...Canon IS the undisputed market leader in DSLR's up to and including FF....just look at the numbers.

"......And another maker has announced plans to build an SLR with an even bigger sensor - Pentax and the 645D. That's Pentax's big sensor camera..."

Full-frame George, we're talking full frame at the moment so try to keep to the context,..yet again!!

".....Actually it has happened. For the same angle of view, lenses on an APS-C are much smaller than lenses on a 24x36 camera..."

Well the FF /35mm frame is twice the size of the APS sensore,...are these wonder lenses half the size of previous lenses George?.......I thought not!

I agree those two are/were strong contenders in their respective fields, as was Bronica in 6x45, but I think Pentax were regarded as the top of the tree, if not the biggest seller.

G

Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please - not another FF vs APS-C discussion
Matt

Viewfinder, in an effort to shed a little light into a dark corner, I will send you a PM.

We must keep Matt happy!

And, anyway, he's right.

G

Ditto.

here here

I ask because when I was looking for an MF camera 10 whole years ago..
I had a choice between Bronnie SQ-B, ETRSi or Mamiya 645. What made me go for the Mamiya and not the Pentax or Bronnie alternatives were:

Price and lens prices
affordable prism alternatives
interchangable backs
modular system
I think Mamiya-Sekor glass is as good as any out there.

10 years later and no regrets, the M645Pro is alive and well

A friend of mine, who also lives on the dark side (1Ds Mk2 owner) has a Pentax 67 Mk2, blinding piece of kit. I think RZ or RB67s have the edge for studio work and the Mamiya 7 is just lovely...

To me Mamiya were, and still are, the Kings of the Castle.

Back to the smaller kit ie the topic.....

To me I think Pentax should develop what they started with the K10D, not do any retrograde steps (ie 6MP K10D) but provide a tool for the professional photographer, ie D2x level. I think a lot of expect something like this for the K1D

Peter

In the days when we all used aperture rings and focused manually, it made better sense to use camera lenses that all worked the same way. Otherwise, you pick up your medium format and it focuses and changes aperture back to front.

Not a big deal until you are under stress in the middle of some event and get it wrong.

So in 35mm, Pentax and Nikon turn the same way.

In medium format, it's Pentax and Bronica (I wonder of that is because early Bronica lenses were Nikkors?).

So for reasons of ergonomics, I used Pentax medium format, having first trird mamiya and found out the hard way. As usual.

Strangely enough John....

I am in the process of selling my *ist DL to a Canon-wielding friend (this is for my K10D fund). She didn't like the DA18-55 lens because the lens barrel rotated the wrong way. However, my Sigma 28-105 rotates the same way as Canon, so the Sigma goes with the DL and I keep the 18-55.

I'm not going to argue with this; it's partly subjective after all, and Mamiya certainly have a good claim to top billing. If you subsititute Mamiya for Pentax in my original statement, the logic still stands, which is that just because one or more manufacturers are in a particular market, it doesn't mean that all the others have to be.

G