Sunny 16.
Posted 12/08/2010 - 21:56
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That's OK... It works indoors, too.!
No man is worth his salt, who has not been banned from at least one Forum, and two Flickr groups.
Mowog.
Mowog.
Posted 13/08/2010 - 17:31
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mowog wrote:
I haven't the slightest idea what Algi and Anvh are talking about. All that theoretical stuff is way over my head...
No problems.I haven't the slightest idea what Algi and Anvh are talking about. All that theoretical stuff is way over my head...
I think we ended with an important thing though that you need to expose digital differently then film.
You might have heard the phrase "expose to the right" here or somewhere else.
That's because the sensor actually capture more "tones" the brighter it gets, the only thing is it simply stops when you reach the top and you lose all data on that pixel, you burned it out so to say.
So what you should do is expose it so that the brightest part just doesn't burn out (clip) that way you've the maximum detail in your photo and in post processing you bring the brightness off the photo back to the level you want.
Here is more about it. link
The very last part of the whole things is very interesting it explains the difference between film and digital. I'll quote it here.
Quote:
For film based photography, the highlight end of the scale is compressed by the shoulder portion of the D/log E curve. So as brighter and brighter objects are photographed, the highlight detail gets gradually compressed more and more until eventually the film saturates. But up until that point, the highlight compression progresses in a gradual fashion.
Solid state sensors in digital cameras behave very differently. As light falls on a sensor, a charge either accumulates or dissipates (depending on the sensor technology). Its response is well behaved right up until the point of saturation, at which time it abruptly stops. There is no forgiveness by gradually backing off, as was the case with film.
Because of this difference, setting up the exposure using an 18% gray card (as is typically done with film) does not work so well with a digital camera. You will get better results if you set your exposure such that the whitest white in the scene comes close to, but not quite reaching, the full digital scale (255 for 8-bit capture, 65535 for 16-bit capture). Base the exposure on the highlight for a digital camera, and a mid-tone (e.g. 18% gray card) for a film camera.
For film based photography, the highlight end of the scale is compressed by the shoulder portion of the D/log E curve. So as brighter and brighter objects are photographed, the highlight detail gets gradually compressed more and more until eventually the film saturates. But up until that point, the highlight compression progresses in a gradual fashion.
Solid state sensors in digital cameras behave very differently. As light falls on a sensor, a charge either accumulates or dissipates (depending on the sensor technology). Its response is well behaved right up until the point of saturation, at which time it abruptly stops. There is no forgiveness by gradually backing off, as was the case with film.
Because of this difference, setting up the exposure using an 18% gray card (as is typically done with film) does not work so well with a digital camera. You will get better results if you set your exposure such that the whitest white in the scene comes close to, but not quite reaching, the full digital scale (255 for 8-bit capture, 65535 for 16-bit capture). Base the exposure on the highlight for a digital camera, and a mid-tone (e.g. 18% gray card) for a film camera.
Stefan
K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
Posted 13/08/2010 - 17:47
Link
The problem with that Stefan is that the information is quite old now, and digital cameras have much more dynamic range than 5 stops. Probably more like 9-12 stops, dependinmg upon the camera.
Like slide film, over-exposure kills the image with blown-out highlights, so be very careful about exposing "to the right" - most people find a touch of under-exposure can help quite a few images.
When we talk about exposing for film we need to differentiate between slide (positive) and print (negative) films. The former must never be over-exposed, the latter can take quite an amount of over-exposure.
The best option in all cases is to get the exposure spot on, but if the dynamic range of the scene exceeds that of the sensor or film, then sacrifices have to be made.
Like slide film, over-exposure kills the image with blown-out highlights, so be very careful about exposing "to the right" - most people find a touch of under-exposure can help quite a few images.
When we talk about exposing for film we need to differentiate between slide (positive) and print (negative) films. The former must never be over-exposed, the latter can take quite an amount of over-exposure.
The best option in all cases is to get the exposure spot on, but if the dynamic range of the scene exceeds that of the sensor or film, then sacrifices have to be made.
Best regards, John
Posted 13/08/2010 - 18:12
Link
Besides the dynamic range the article is still up to date, RAW files are still only 12 bit so still 4,096 discrete tonal values and you can see how those are spread by the table they use.
2048 levels for the Brightest Tones
1024 levels for Bright Tones
512 levels for the Mid-Tones
256 levels for the Dark Tones
128 levels for the Darkest Tones
Since like you said Dynamic range has increased the spacing of these tones also has increased meaning you might even want to over expose more now then you did with your first digital SLR to keep the graduation between the tones smooth, just don't clip it.
2048 levels for the Brightest Tones
1024 levels for Bright Tones
512 levels for the Mid-Tones
256 levels for the Dark Tones
128 levels for the Darkest Tones
Since like you said Dynamic range has increased the spacing of these tones also has increased meaning you might even want to over expose more now then you did with your first digital SLR to keep the graduation between the tones smooth, just don't clip it.
Stefan
K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
Posted 13/08/2010 - 18:29
Link
That's the site I was thinking of Stefan, just never bookmarked it. Exposing to the right rarely works out correctly when there isn't a lot of white in the picture. The mid tones come out too light but I suppose they can be taken down abit in PP. The digital preview is about the safest.
If you photograph say a swan you have to adjust the exposure so that large areas of white aren't clipped, but if the next shot is of say a female Mallard using the same exposure will be too dark (assuming it's sunny). So you have to use a bit of common sense even with the Sunny 16 rule
It's still valid using an 18% grey card, I should have mentioned I use it also for colour balance. In a correctly exposed shot (mid-toned) the grey card should read around RGB 118
Unfortunately sensors won't cover the full range of tones, but 35mm B&W film won't either it loses a full Zone of the Zone System compared to 6x6 or 5x4 from the highlights.
If you photograph say a swan you have to adjust the exposure so that large areas of white aren't clipped, but if the next shot is of say a female Mallard using the same exposure will be too dark (assuming it's sunny). So you have to use a bit of common sense even with the Sunny 16 rule
It's still valid using an 18% grey card, I should have mentioned I use it also for colour balance. In a correctly exposed shot (mid-toned) the grey card should read around RGB 118
Unfortunately sensors won't cover the full range of tones, but 35mm B&W film won't either it loses a full Zone of the Zone System compared to 6x6 or 5x4 from the highlights.
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber
Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff
Algi
Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff
Algi
Posted 13/08/2010 - 19:22
Link
Anvh wrote:
Since like you said Dynamic range has increased the spacing of these tones also has increased meaning you might even want to over expose more now then you did with your first digital SLR to keep the graduation between the tones smooth, just don't clip it.
I'm with John on this. My experience is that a slight underexposure gives a better result than overexposure. So I would be reluctant to expose to the right.Since like you said Dynamic range has increased the spacing of these tones also has increased meaning you might even want to over expose more now then you did with your first digital SLR to keep the graduation between the tones smooth, just don't clip it.
To be honest, I think you are getting too theoretical about this, Stefan. Most of us, I think, have a more practical approach, and many of us have problems following your scientific explanations.
Best regards
Terry
K20D, Optio I10, DA 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 AL II, A 1:1.7/50, D FA 1:2.8/100 Macro, Sigma 70-300 1:4-5.6 APO DG Macro, Pentax AF 360FGZ
Terry
K20D, Optio I10, DA 18-55 1:3.5-5.6 AL II, A 1:1.7/50, D FA 1:2.8/100 Macro, Sigma 70-300 1:4-5.6 APO DG Macro, Pentax AF 360FGZ
Posted 13/08/2010 - 19:28
Link
I use the greycard, on multicam shoots to get a color balance and exposure when shooting photos and video.
works fine.
works fine.
Fired many shots. Didn't kill anything.
Posted 13/08/2010 - 20:14
Link
terje-l wrote:
To be honest, I think you are getting too theoretical about this, Stefan. Most of us, I think, have a more practical approach, and many of us have problems following your scientific explanations.
This isn't some theoretical thing that doesn't work or isn't worthwhile, it really can make a difference on how smooth the tones are.Anvh wrote:
Since like you said Dynamic range has increased the spacing of these tones also has increased meaning you might even want to over expose more now then you did with your first digital SLR to keep the graduation between the tones smooth, just don't clip it.
I'm with John on this. My experience is that a slight underexposure gives a better result than overexposure. So I would be reluctant to expose to the right.Since like you said Dynamic range has increased the spacing of these tones also has increased meaning you might even want to over expose more now then you did with your first digital SLR to keep the graduation between the tones smooth, just don't clip it.
To be honest, I think you are getting too theoretical about this, Stefan. Most of us, I think, have a more practical approach, and many of us have problems following your scientific explanations.
There is a difference on what you want to do with the photo.
If you want the photo ready straight out of the camera then yes you're right.
If you want to process the photo at home then how the photo looks straight out of the camera doesn't matter, you want to be sure you capture the most details/tones/information with it for you to work with.
If you don't understand what I mean, then please say so, maybe I can explain it in another way.
Here is Matt's explanation and a topic that shows the difference, just look at pschlute's photos. link
Posted 15/08/2010 - 10:17
Link
Some of you might find Fred Parkers extension of the
Sunny 16 rule interesting:
THE ULTIMATE EXPOSURE COMPUTER
A GUIDE FOR NATURE PHOTOGRAPHERS
For the more technical this page goes into more detail about why the 18% middle grey card doesn't quite tie into meter readings due to k factors etc. It lists what k factors different manufacturers have used.
Sunny 16 rule interesting:
THE ULTIMATE EXPOSURE COMPUTER
A GUIDE FOR NATURE PHOTOGRAPHERS
For the more technical this page goes into more detail about why the 18% middle grey card doesn't quite tie into meter readings due to k factors etc. It lists what k factors different manufacturers have used.
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber
Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff
Algi
Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff
Algi
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848 posts
16 years
Twickenham
Because of the Sunny sixteen rule, I can correctly expose just about anything, by memorising FOUR exposure values (or rather the combinations of shutter speed and aperture that make them). EV8, for night street scenes. EV12, for dull, overcast winter days. EV13, for bright, but cloudy conditions, and EV15,(The Sunny sixteen) for very bright sunny days with hard shadows. - Just knowing (and remembering) these four settings, means I can leave my camera on manual. And use any camera ever made, however old and basic, knowing I will get the exposure about right.
I shoot indoors.
(That's why I use a lightmeter)