K-5IIs - more discussion

Yes, Andrew that is a valid interpretation of my point! I am concerned that we often hear someone saying something like : 'these shots have been posted with absolutely no editing / alteration applied - what do you think of the differences?'

This raises some questions that we don't hear much - namely the issue of precisely what specific camera metadata is transferred with the file in a form readable by any given RAW converter. I believe most average users would not be aware of such details. I certainly am not! However, for example, I am aware that the Pentax Custom Image Parameters are transferred with a DNG into PDCU (which I usually use for initial RAW conversion and key adjustments) - and they do make a dramatic difference.

If I was posting comparison shots and had used PDCU for the conversion, then it would be absolutely critical that the Camera Customs settings were exactly equivilent, or the comparison would be invalid. Even a single unit of contrast difference between the two could prove deceptive in this context of comparing 'sharpness'. most defintaly any differences between the different 'sharpness fineness' settings would be critical.

It is important to highlight the fact that it is not possible to have a 'neutral' or 'off' setting for the camera custom image settings - they cannot be turned off - you always, for every shot, have a master preset selected and many fine tuning sliders with default positions for each preset. This info is all saved into the DNG and transferred with the file. We may think this info is insignificant for RAW files, but I am questioning whether this is so. It is difficult for us (at least those like me who aren't computer experts who understand programming) to know the exact affect of each parameter on the default state of the image when opened into a third party converter (eg ACR / Lightroom etc).

I just feel it is worth being sure about this before assuming that any perceived increased sharpness or resolution in a shot is in fact entirely due to the removed AA filter and not to some small internal parameter setting that the photographer is not even aware of.

I've been trying to stay out of this recently as it's all got a bit anal and technical, but what I can say is that all camera settings that could possibly affect IQ were identical between the K-5 and the K-5IIs. When I say all, I mean all. No differences at all.

That doesn't mean that the two cameras treated the shot the same - they meter differently and the IIs exposes shots much more than the K-5 does. I don't know why, but it does.

Regards
David

Been trawling this thread too, little bit too much for me in places but that's just me...

I think it's fair to say that whether you have an original K5 or a K5IIs your camera is more than capable of producing VERY sharp images...if you're in the market for a new one then it's often said "buy the best you can afford", same rule applies I suppose..you'll not be disappointed with either though.

Simon

Why not just put the RAW files somewhere (Google GDrive or somesuch) so that we can all have a look at the camera settings (with ExifTool for example) and have a good pixel peep at the unadulterated images (with RawAnalyze or RawDigger). Contrary to some opinions expressed on this thread, it is possible to view and judge the sharpness of RAW images without demosaicing

I've e-mailed the RAW images to Smeggy; I'm happy for Smeggy to upload them wherever he likes. If anyone else wants me to e-mail them, please let me know.

Regards
David

I only ever received one RAW image ( 2nd one ). I think he had trouble mailing the 2nd one ( Mail has a 20Mb limit ) David then mailed me full sized jpgs, which I had a look at.

all this talk talk and more talk all you got to do is go out and if you like it buy it and if you dont like it guess what dont buy it its a bloody camera and ive have got to say its a very nice one dark in colour good grip,so come on dont make a big deal out of it.

I can see from comments around the forum that some are beginning to understand how the bowl of petunias felt.

...and watch out for the zebra crossing...
Matt

...and the Emperor's new clothes.

"Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now."



Andrew

LOL.

Yes, in the end the only realistic comparison you have to make with any camera, is that between the cash it costs and the cash in your bank account.


As done & stated by the OP I believe...

Because apart from maybe two or three shops that stock Pentax we can't all go out and play with them side by side..

The technical differences between the equipment being compared is inversely proportional to the length of discussion!

Getting back on track , think about this - David says his K511s image is BRIGHTER. What could cause this? Not any of the settings that he says me has managed exactly, and we assume the lighting levels stayed the same. This should have sounded some warnings.

Image catalogs (such as PS Elements organiser, Lightroom) and the PDCU folder view all display a JPEG preview, either the RAW file embedded one or they build a new one - as on the camera LCD display these small JPEGs will reflect the Custom Image Parameters applied in camera.
Pentax Custom Parameters include settings that control exposure and contrast. The effect of these will vary depending on the preset chosen and any adjustments to the sliders.

If David is noticing a difference in BRIGHTNESS of two images side by side in his catalogue or file browser then this is quite likely caused by such a Custom Image Parameter, which is why I have been bangin on about it! It is worth noting also that there are some obvious contrast differences between some of Davids images. It doesn't take much to imagine then that similar differences in sharpness could be caused also by differences in camera CIP settings for sharpness / fine sharpness 1 / 2 etc.

This data is contained in XMP form I believe, and will be contained within the DNG as well as rendered in the JPEG preview. The next question is how different converters will apply it, as these XMP fields may map onto similar control parameters within the program, and so alter the default opening state of the image.