IQ fix in K10D Firmware update?
Posted 30/08/2007 - 12:07
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Unfortunately, it seems plainly obvious to me that at the pixel level (and after all, digital images are ultimately comprised of pixels) there's still a jagged, digital look.
I'm possibly one of the more sympathetic folk around here to what you're saying.Unfortunately, it seems plainly obvious to me that at the pixel level (and after all, digital images are ultimately comprised of pixels) there's still a jagged, digital look.
I'm not ashamed of my personality quirk, which is that a small niggle will tend to occupy a disproportionate amount of my attention. The now well-known metering issues with the K10D and pre-A lenses is such a niggle, and although I've taken steps to no longer use them, it still irritates.
The thing about niggles is that they have to be real.
Even leaving aside the incredibly minor real-world importance of what you're saying, I don't think you've shown that your niggle is real.
You appear to be ascribing reasons for what you see, beyond the justification available from the evidence.
I can live with slightly obsessive people, I am one myself when the fancy takes me.
But bad science really bugs me, and you haven't shown that that's not what you're doing.
Posted 30/08/2007 - 12:44
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A useful and informative discussion, chaps.
I have plenty of 35mm Pentax equipment, and was at first thinking about the K10D (which would have made perfect sense for somebody wanting to move into dSLRs).
However, the DPReview put me off slightly with its obsession with edge definition and the pro-Canon 400D argument. My reaction to that was to consider the Nikon D80, and I started to consider that model very seriously.
But then common sense (and my gut feeling) took over and I researched the K10D more fully, downloading RAW and JPG images from an assortment of websites and inspecting them closely. I found that I actually liked the slight softness of edge definition, and somebody just mentioned that it was "film like" (which it is).
So, I'm back on the Pentax K10D again. Once I've got the necessary funds I'll get the basic kit (18-55 zoom and battery grip) and go from there.
My 35mm format f1.4 standard lens would become a fine portrait lens.
I have plenty of 35mm Pentax equipment, and was at first thinking about the K10D (which would have made perfect sense for somebody wanting to move into dSLRs).
However, the DPReview put me off slightly with its obsession with edge definition and the pro-Canon 400D argument. My reaction to that was to consider the Nikon D80, and I started to consider that model very seriously.
But then common sense (and my gut feeling) took over and I researched the K10D more fully, downloading RAW and JPG images from an assortment of websites and inspecting them closely. I found that I actually liked the slight softness of edge definition, and somebody just mentioned that it was "film like" (which it is).
So, I'm back on the Pentax K10D again. Once I've got the necessary funds I'll get the basic kit (18-55 zoom and battery grip) and go from there.
My 35mm format f1.4 standard lens would become a fine portrait lens.
Owned: MX (bought 1980), ME Super, Super A, Optio S4, Espio 120SW (and standby Espio 105SW), Stereo (3D) adaptor, 35-105mm, 70-210mm, 50/1.4, AF200S, AF200T, AF280T.
Posted 30/08/2007 - 12:55
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you have seen some imperfections (unnoticed by most other people), and you have decided (without any justification) to attribute the cause of them to the camera, not to any of half a dozen other possible agents.
Well, that's up to you. But it's not an intelligent way to assess a camera. In my view.
G
you have seen some imperfections (unnoticed by most other people), and you have decided (without any justification) to attribute the cause of them to the camera, not to any of half a dozen other possible agents.
Well, that's up to you. But it's not an intelligent way to assess a camera. In my view.
G
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You appear to be ascribing reasons for what you see, beyond the justification available from the evidence.
...
bad science really bugs me, and you haven't shown that that's not what you're doing.
To be fair guys, it's not my science, it's the Photozone reviewer's. I'm just using my eyes.
You appear to be ascribing reasons for what you see, beyond the justification available from the evidence.
...
bad science really bugs me, and you haven't shown that that's not what you're doing.
Posted 30/08/2007 - 13:09
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Arto,George Lazarette wrote:
you have seen some imperfections (unnoticed by most other people), and you have decided (without any justification) to attribute the cause of them to the camera, not to any of half a dozen other possible agents.
Well, that's up to you. But it's not an intelligent way to assess a camera. In my view.
G
you have seen some imperfections (unnoticed by most other people), and you have decided (without any justification) to attribute the cause of them to the camera, not to any of half a dozen other possible agents.
Well, that's up to you. But it's not an intelligent way to assess a camera. In my view.
G
Quote:
You appear to be ascribing reasons for what you see, beyond the justification available from the evidence.
...
bad science really bugs me, and you haven't shown that that's not what you're doing.
To be fair guys, it's not my science, it's the Photozone reviewer's. I'm just using my eyes.You appear to be ascribing reasons for what you see, beyond the justification available from the evidence.
...
bad science really bugs me, and you haven't shown that that's not what you're doing.
We all think you're crazy, and have given you a bit of stick, but you have remained polite throughout. You may be crazy, but you're a gentleman.
G
PS: Try and get your hands on a K10D, and take a few pictures for yourself. Then judge it. Some of these "reviewers" are crazier than you are.
Keywords: Charming, polite, and generally agreeable.
Posted 30/08/2007 - 14:17
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Erm, you want tack sharpness, which film doesn't have for a start. Complain about the AA filter when this is completely bypassed when shooting RAW and you can get exactly the image you want. A good RAW workflow tool like Silkypix or Lightroom is worth spending on (never tried the included Pentax one but it is Silkypix).
Printing is VERY different to viewing on screen. On screen you see a very limited resolution in squarevision mode. Printed on a good printer the blending that occurs (very nice on laser exposed photographic paper) means you don't get any jagged edges. The paper still has grain and produces wonderful images. Once you print you'll think the image on screen is rather pointless.
You won't find anything to equal the K10D in price, features and flexibility. I found it better than the D200 I tried. JPEGs I've seen from the D200 are actually worse than what I've seen from a K10 (seems to have bad compression).
Printing is VERY different to viewing on screen. On screen you see a very limited resolution in squarevision mode. Printed on a good printer the blending that occurs (very nice on laser exposed photographic paper) means you don't get any jagged edges. The paper still has grain and produces wonderful images. Once you print you'll think the image on screen is rather pointless.
You won't find anything to equal the K10D in price, features and flexibility. I found it better than the D200 I tried. JPEGs I've seen from the D200 are actually worse than what I've seen from a K10 (seems to have bad compression).
Posted 05/09/2007 - 07:50
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As a side note, I just received a 30x45 (cm) print from my *ist-DS.
Allthough you can see that this is probably about the limit which you would normally print with this camera I was amazed by how well it looked. If I compare it with similar sized prints from film it comes very, very close.
I can only think of how great this print would have looked if I took the image with a K10...
Allthough you can see that this is probably about the limit which you would normally print with this camera I was amazed by how well it looked. If I compare it with similar sized prints from film it comes very, very close.
I can only think of how great this print would have looked if I took the image with a K10...
Camera:K20D|Ist*DS|Spotmatic II|MZ-10
Pentax Lenses: DA16-45|DA50-200|50A 1.7
Tamron Lenses: 28-200
Takumar Lenses: SMC 55 1.8
Sigma Lenses: EX DG 50-500 'Bigma'|EX 50mm Macro
Flashes: Metz 58 AF-1|Samsung SEF-36PZF|Pentax AF-220T
Pentax Lenses: DA16-45|DA50-200|50A 1.7
Tamron Lenses: 28-200
Takumar Lenses: SMC 55 1.8
Sigma Lenses: EX DG 50-500 'Bigma'|EX 50mm Macro
Flashes: Metz 58 AF-1|Samsung SEF-36PZF|Pentax AF-220T
Posted 05/09/2007 - 18:39
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You really won't find anything better for the money.
You won't find anything to equal the K10D in price, features and flexibility. I actually have a D200 and have found it to be better than that and I only shoot in RAW.
All my files are rezzed up to around 50mb for agencies. So any jaggies really would show up and the agency would kick them out.
I have hardly picked the D200 up in the last 6 weeks or so since I got the K10D.
You won't find anything to equal the K10D in price, features and flexibility. I actually have a D200 and have found it to be better than that and I only shoot in RAW.
All my files are rezzed up to around 50mb for agencies. So any jaggies really would show up and the agency would kick them out.
I have hardly picked the D200 up in the last 6 weeks or so since I got the K10D.
Posted 05/09/2007 - 18:50
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Good stuff. It all goes into the equation. I'm especially interested in the comparison to the D200. That should be coming down in price shortly and may be in direct competition with the K10D. Although it doesn't feel quite so good in the hand as the Pentax, it is made of metal, has a wider range of available lenses and flashes (I'm keen on getting a Sigma ring flash, naturally unavailable for the Pentax), and so on ... but several posters have commented that they prefer the IQ of the K10D to that of the D200.
Posted 05/09/2007 - 19:56
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My only bugbear for the Pentax is the lack of ring flash but I am trying to work round that.
I use the Nikon twin macro flash on and off the ring mount on the D200 and have used the ring flashes before that.
Someone suggested using 2 flash guns but for me that isn't an option as the whole point of the change over from Nikon to Pentax was a weight issue.
I am looking into the Novoflex system and the Vivitar 6000AF TTL Macro Ringlight Flash (Guide No. 52'/16 m) for Pentax AF
The Vivitar is looking the best bet due to the price.
Check out the B&H site bearing in mind that anything brought into the UK will be charged tax.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/649/Macro_Ringlight_Flashes.html
The Pentax is also more weather tight than the D200
I use the Nikon twin macro flash on and off the ring mount on the D200 and have used the ring flashes before that.
Someone suggested using 2 flash guns but for me that isn't an option as the whole point of the change over from Nikon to Pentax was a weight issue.
I am looking into the Novoflex system and the Vivitar 6000AF TTL Macro Ringlight Flash (Guide No. 52'/16 m) for Pentax AF
The Vivitar is looking the best bet due to the price.
Check out the B&H site bearing in mind that anything brought into the UK will be charged tax.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/649/Macro_Ringlight_Flashes.html
The Pentax is also more weather tight than the D200
Posted 05/09/2007 - 20:09
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Good stuff. It all goes into the equation. I'm especially interested in the comparison to the D200. That should be coming down in price shortly and may be in direct competition with the K10D. Although it doesn't feel quite so good in the hand as the Pentax, it is made of metal, has a wider range of available lenses and flashes (I'm keen on getting a Sigma ring flash, naturally unavailable for the Pentax), and so on ... but several posters have commented that they prefer the IQ of the K10D to that of the D200.
The K10D has a strong plastic shell on a very strong stainless steel chassis. Strength without too much weight.Good stuff. It all goes into the equation. I'm especially interested in the comparison to the D200. That should be coming down in price shortly and may be in direct competition with the K10D. Although it doesn't feel quite so good in the hand as the Pentax, it is made of metal, has a wider range of available lenses and flashes (I'm keen on getting a Sigma ring flash, naturally unavailable for the Pentax), and so on ... but several posters have commented that they prefer the IQ of the K10D to that of the D200.
Incidentally, there are several third-party ring-flashes available, as well as second-hand Pentax ring-flashes. The relatively inexpensive AF080C has a 49mm mounting ring, which is too small for the lovely Pentax FA 100mm macro. But.........
.........on digital, the 100mm macro can mount the AF080C using a step-down ring, and there is no vignetting.
G
Keywords: Charming, polite, and generally agreeable.
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8192 posts
22 years
London
If everybody could please take a deep breath and calm down, I'll explain. I have been making photos for 25 years. I love film (and all its artifacts, such as grain) and until now have been suspicious of digital - and all its artifacts. Whether you're talking about image or sound, digital artifacts are abrupt, intrusive, inorganic, ugly, especially compared to the gorgeous randomness of analog, as seen, for example, in film grain. And, too, I like to tightly crop my images, which makes this all the more relevant.
Now, looking at samples of the output of various late-model DSLRs I can see that a few, particularly some Nikons, are close to approximating that smooth, organic, analog feel. However, having handled both the Nikons and the K10D, I prefer the shooting feel of the latter. Unfortunately, it seems plainly obvious to me that at the pixel level (and after all, digital images are ultimately comprised of pixels) there's still a jagged, digital look.
I, personally, don't like that. It doesn't make me a troglodyte, or psychologically impaired. As far as I am aware I do not possess perverse personality quirks, such as posting screeds of replies to a forum thread without once attempting to seriously address the issue at hand.
However, my question has been answered, in a way. I perceive that the K10D is capable of inspiring great loyalty in its owners, which inclines me ever more towards taking my first step into digital with the Pentax platform. Just maybe not with this camera.
Well, that's up to you. But it's not an intelligent way to assess a camera. In my view.
G