Death on the dial

I have been looking at the user manual for the K10D and, with the introduction of Sv and TAv modes plus ways of switching in/out of priority modes without actually turning the mode dial, I can't help but think that things are starting to get more complicated than they need to be. For example, what's the difference between Manual mode wih Auto ISO, and TAv mode? Well, alright, with the former you can under/overexpose by adjusting shutter/aperture (and I assume the sensitivity will only auto select one of the usual 100,200 etc) and with the latter, you get to use Exposure Compensation which I assume must adjust the sensitivity in 1/3 or 1/2 stops. But do you see what I mean? What if you have set your shot up in Manual mode and decide you want to underexpose by adjusting sensitivity?

Aperture, shutter speed and sensitivity are the three variables in exposure. Until digital came along, the only way to change sensitivity was to change film, and this seems to have restricted the design of digital SLRs for no reason. Even in the K10D, sensitiviy has not really reached equal status with aperture and shutter speed.

Since it has been suggested that Pentax might look to user forums for feedback/ideas, I thought I'd suggest the following:

Get rid of the mode dial. Have three e-dials - one on the front for shutter, and on the back, one for aperture and one (vertical maybe) for sensitivity). At the low end of the range, each dial would change to Auto. The sensitivity dial could be set up for 1/3 or 1/5 stop increments. For shutter, Bulb could be at the other end of the scale to Auto. The dials could be speed sensitive, so a quick flick would put you easily into Auto without having to spin all the way from the other end of the scale, or, if you think it important to be able to retain priority settings, have a single button which could be used with any dial, to toggle between Auto and the most recently set manual value.

And if you really must put all that scene mode stuff in, you can hide that away on a menu where ISO used to be!

What do you think? Anyone else been mulling over how to simplify dSLRs so we can spend more time looking through the lens?

PygmyTwittle

PygmyTwittle,

Just one small fly in the ointment, as it were, is that Manual mode fixes the ISO... at least it does on the *ist-D. You can't have Manual and Auto ISO. In fact, you can't even have exposure compensation and auto ISO - as soon as you enable compensation then the ISO is fixed.

I'll wait and see the K10D before passing any more judgments

Matt

Actually, I'm glad that the new camera doesn't have all those silly Scene modes. My D has the basics, plus some sort of "green" mode which I tend to ignore.

The K10D only has a couple of more modes, and they're actual real useful modes. We'll wait to see the camera, but it sounds like a well thought-out peice of equipement.

That's an excellent post PygmyTwittle but not withstanding the fact that the K10D offers the highest resolution amongst Pentax DSLRs, why would you want a top of the range highly sophisticated camera, if you then wanted to simplify it's operation by removing modes but adding further buttons and dials?

Much the same was said of the Z1 and it's true that there is really nothing that can be achieved with a sophisticated camera that is not possible with a more basic model. Modern cameras have features that most owners never use but at least you have the choice.
Once you customize your camera, it becomes truly yours and unique to you.
The Pentax Hyper modes are totally unnecessary but wonderfully intuitive and do indeed allow the photographer to spend more time with his/her eye to the viewfinder.
As for the Scene modes, these are an excellent tool for the inexperienced a) to ensure a decent shot and b) you can learn from the 'decisions' made by the camera and then tweak the settings to your own preference.

I think that the flagship camera should not only be built to the highest possible standards but should include every conceivable feature and this is bound at times to complicate it's operation.

It remains to be seen just how good and user-friendly the K10D will be but it looks mighty impressive and it will be interesting to read user reviews.
Most people are accustomed to the Mode dial and may be dissuaded from moving up to a model without one - who knows? time will tell!

Undoubtedly, the features of the K10D look fantastic, and I am not trying to spoil anyone's enjoyment of their new toy before they even get it - I'd also be buying one if I had the money . I'm not saying that it won't be easy to use - I'm just interested in why, with digital, sensitivity hasn't just become a third and equal parameter.

I had a look at my old SF7 last night, which doesn't have a mode dial - you have the aperture ring on the lens (usually with an A setting) and an e-dial for shutter speed, which toggles in/out of Auto if you use the dial whilst holding a button - exactly as I described in my post above.
I haven't used it for ten years, but that must have been sitting at the back of my mind as an easier interface than 'modes' and a mode dial.

A camera can have sophisticated features like "sensitivity adjustable in 1/3 stops", without having to have a complicated interface, like Sv or TAv mode. The K10D already has the two e-dials - swapping the mode dial for a further e-dial for sensitivity wouldn't add any extra dials but would simplify the operation.

Really, MattMatic's reply illustrates exactly what I mean - "at least on the *istD". So I checked last night on my *istDS - the interface does let you adjust ISO to AUTO when in manual mode. I'd never actually taken a shot like that before - it fixes the ISO at 200 even thought the setting says AUTO. In fact, the manual does actually state that this will be the case for the K10D. But if you could have AUTO ISO in manual mode, how would it be different to TAv, that is what a meant in my original post.
The modes are unnecessary - why have a full manual mode in which you cannot adjust sensitivity easily (and then only in whole stops), but have a TAv mode in which you can manually adjust shutter and aperture but have auto iso which you can adjust with exposure compensation in 1/3 stops.
The K10D has the ability to adjust sensitivity in 1/3 stops, but you can't do it in full manual mode, just doesn't make any sense.

When you have just two parameters, you only need four modes - P, Av, Tv and M.
When you have three parameters, if you persist with the idea of modes, you really ought to have P, Av, Tv, Sv, TAv, TSv, ASv and M.
Much better to get rid of modes altogether - I have three parameters and for each, either I want to set it myself or I want the camera to control it - simple.

I know there are plenty of amazing photos out there which have been taken without the ability to control sensitivity so precisely, but if a camera is going to include such a feature (and I think that is a good thing), then it should be easy and it should be available in manual mode.
I'm going to give my completely unprofessional opinion and stake my non-existent reputation on this - there will be a dSLR which works the way I have suggested - I just hope it's a Pentax.

PygmyTwittle.

Hi PygmyTwittle (can't help saying TiggyWinkle in my head, sorry ),

I'm not going to say "good idea/bad idea" or anything like that, partly because I got a little lost halfway through your last post - I tend to use the lowest ISO and manual exposure for 90% of my work, so having precise, immediate control over the ISO isn't an issue for me.

However, I would say that I think the reason ISO hasn't been used in the same way as Aperture and Shutter Speed for controling exposure is probably because there are quality variations associated with change in ISO, whereas, to a much larger degree, there aren't with the other two variables. Changing Tv or Av doesn't have a detrimental effect on image quality, whereas a change in ISO can. This, I feel, limits its use in everyday exposure control.

Also, having ISO on a dial, which could easily, and inadvertantly, be adjusted, could well drive me round the bend!

Dan

Okay - I was creating a new user account on yahoo and happened to be listening to an excellent instrumental called Pygmy Twylyte by a band called Gov't Mule (who are they? well, you must have heard of the Allman Brothers Band - Warren Haynes plays guitar with them, and Gov't Mule is his own band). So I thought "that'll do for a username" but it wouldn't accept it. Now some friends and I were playing this song in our band and one of them always referred to it as Pygmy Twittle, presumably because there is lots of widdly guitar which non-guitarists think is twittle-twattle.
Yahoo didn't reject that as a username and it seems to have stuck as my username of choice these days.

Daniel, yes I take your point about noise and ISO.

I too shoot in Manual mode with the lowest ISO - it's just that there seem to be plenty of occasions when I know the aperture I want (can't go any bigger for loss of DoF), I know the shutter speed I want (or more likely can't go any slower without motion blur) and would just like a dial to adjust the sensitivity to get the exposure I want, rather than having to take my eye from the viewfinder and use the Fn button and cursor keys.

And be honest, how many times have you inadvertantly adjusted shutter, aperture or any other setting which is currently easily adjustable?

PygmyT

Well, honestly, I've brought the camera to my eye, I would say, at least 20 times, and found the mode dial has been knocked from 'M' to 'Av' or 'B' (or even further round), so that was my immediate thought.

When using 'M', I'll hit the green button to get a base exposure, then adjust accordingly. I was just thinking if the ISO had been altered, and I'd either forgotten or not noticed, I could happily be shooting away at a much higher ISO than I thought. I've posted on a similar subject before: https://www.pentaxuser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2769

I can see what you mean though about having an ideal Av and Tv, and wanting to alter the ISO for best exposure. It's not something that's ever really bothered me, and when I have needed to, doing so on the istD has never been too much bother (spin mode dial, spin front command dial, spin mode dial back). Admittedly, I'm usually using a tripod, shooting stationary subjects, and time's often on my side.

Perhaps one day, you'll get what you want - I guess I'm fortunate that I've got what I need already.

Dan

Thanks for the link to your interesting post on ISO - I have had exactly the same problem. I up the ISO to take some shots with the available light, then forget I've done it, and the next time I have good light, I end up shooting with higher ISO and lower quality than necessary. I've really tried hard to drum into my head "ISO, APERTURE, SHUTTER". It's precisely because ISO is not as easy to access that I forget about it, and that's why, for me at least (and it looks like no-one else after all ), bringing it to the forefront along with aperture and shutter makes perfect sense - it would make me think about it for every shot.

It is interesting to speculate though, that with noise suppression and perhaps with improvement of sensors, sensitivity could well become just a matter of choice in order to achieve the desired aperture/shutter and may no longer be associated with a loss of image quality. I'm sure there must be some physics which says that when you have less light you have fewer photons and less energy and you can't make up for that, but there are already diffenrences between the noise level at a given iso for different sensors/cameras, so there is probably room for improvement.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

PygmyT.

Hi Pygmy,

have a go with Neat Image. There is a freeware version, and it appears to be pretty good at cleaning up noise and other artifacts when shooting at high(er) ISOs. It's recommended by people here, in fact I think Matt submitted the profiles for the D.

Cheers

Liam

The K1D perhaps?