Beginning of the end for 35mm?

The news is that Dixons are stopping selling 35mm film cameras now that sales of digital outnumber 35mm 15:1. Well, we didn't buy from Dixons anyway, but is this a sign of the real end of 35mm film camera sales?

Yes and no.

When I sell film cameras on eBay, the Pentax classics sell well at good prices, and they always sell. The demand is strong.

When Sue sells cameras in her job, it's more oftenm than not digital.

My feeling is that DSLRs and "Bridge" digital cameras are so seductive with their high quality and instant results that for most people that is the way to go and film is out.

It's only us enthusiasts who will keep film going, and IMHO that will be black and white film and slide film. The real casualty will surely be print film, which will have no market.

Of course there will be certain applications where either format will be preferable. If I went on an Arctic Trek (I won't!) I would take film. If I wanted to shoot a mass of pictures for eBay (I will!) I would use a digital camera.

However, the main point is surely that I really enjoy my photography. Does it really matter if I use film or digital?

It matters if you can't GET film.

I'm sure b&w will be around for a while, but colour print, as you say, seems doomed. What some people don't appreciate is that the manufacturing process requires high volumes. Without high volumes, the economics won't work, and the product will disappear. The occasional polar explorer won't be enough to keep the machines running.

I don't give reversal film too long, either. It was always a niche market, and the niche is getting much smaller very quickly.

I think you are wrong about camera prices. The prices for LXs, Mxs and Z1-Ps have all dropped considerably in the last 12 months. Ffordes currently have a "mint-" Z1-P for sale at £149.00. A year ago it would have been £200 plus. There are numerous other examples.

Many of the buyers for classic cameras are people snapping up a model they always wanted, so that they can put it on the shelf and fondle it occasionally. They won't put much film through it, though.

G

I was really talking about ebay when it came to prices. Many dealers have been vastly over-priced for a long time, and now we have a viable alternative source their prices will inevitably have had to fall.

Who would buy a SMC Pentax-M 100mm f2.8 for £275 from a shop when you can pick up a better one for less than £100 on eBay? I know there are other risks, but with care it works most of the time.

You may well be right about classic cameras sitting on shelves. It's a pity. I like my cameras yo be in use, but even then I can't use them all all the time!

The end has accelerated recently - it wasn't that long ago that it was announced that digital cameras were outselling film - now it's 15 -1.

I have been pretty much fully digital for some time although I had kept my Rolleiflex 2.8f for "special" pictures.

The end came when I sold that to part fund my iST DS.

6 or 7 years ago it would have bought three iSt DS (at today's price) but of course then a 6MP DSLR would have been 10's of thousands of pounds - if it had existed.

ho hum - progress eh.

I take more image snow than I have at any time in the past - as far as I'm concerned digital is a good thing. And with the DS I no longer need to chase technology.

The end has accelerated recently - it wasn't that long ago that it was announced that digital cameras were outselling film - now it's 15 -1.

I have been pretty much fully digital for some time although I had kept my Rolleiflex 2.8f for "special" pictures.

The end came when I sold that to part fund my iST DS.

6 or 7 years ago it would have bought three iSt DS (at today's price) but of course then a 6MP DSLR would have been 10's of thousands of pounds - if it had existed.

ho hum - progress eh.

I take more image snow than I have at any time in the past - as far as I'm concerned digital is a good thing. And with the DS I no longer need to chase technology.

Ebay prices for cameras have seen the same sort of drop. A year or so ago you couldn't get an MX under £100. Now they're going for as low as £40.00 in some cases.

G

Hi to all,

Film will never die, simply because of other markets opening up..it will just become a much smaller market and possibly more expensive. I have mentioned before there is a strong minority of snappers returning to film due to un-happiness with digital. The good side of digital is that it is bringing folk back to photography who have not snapped for years and quite a few of these are quickly becoming disillusioned with digital and buying old classic film gear.
The vast majority of film gear is dropping in price, some alarmingly so, but other scarce items are actually increasing in value, but mostly only on the worldwide market..ie ebay and the web. I think photo dealers as we know them are doomed, except for a few specialists.
So the simpple answer is that both John & George are both right!! it depends on the item and the market.
Cheers Steve.

In the spirit of genuine good humoured debate

Go on then Steve - go and buy a record on any high street

I think "much smaller" is something of an understatement. Highly specialised is probably closer.

OK, the analogy is there. The best film images are superior to the best digital images. It's also probably true that the very best vinyl pressing is superior to the very best CD. However, in the latter case it is very rare to find a really well produced "audiophile" vinyl recording. In general, the CD will be better. In general, it's likely that the digital photograph will be better as well. We're not all Ansel Adams....

Hi,
Dixon's and the other High Street didn't sell MF or high quality 35mm cameras such as Leica, Contax etc. This didn't mean that they were about to die. I was in Jessops today and the person behind the counter said that pretty much the bulk of their new camera sales was digital however, they had not noticed any decline in the processing of film. There are still quite a few film cameras out there and many people are using them.

As to the film manufacturers, I can't see them ending film production in the near future. 35mm is only part of their sales and the market for MF and LF pro work is not getting any less. Whilst there are making film for this, it is just as easy to make it in the smaller formats. Boots are still selling 110 Kodak film - How big are those sales these days? As to it being a niche market for B/W and slide, I would disagree. I know of many, many folks who do not want digital because they are happy with the way they have done things and don't want to get involved in computers etc etc.

As to the secondhand market, I would agree that there is a strong demise in the AF side. To add to what George said about the Z1P, last week I saw a near mint MZ5 selling for £60 in a dealer in Nottingham. On the other hand , the prices for the better MF items are increasing. This time last year, you could get a godd LX from Ffordes, MXV etc for around £300. Now you will have to pay nearer £400. I have been after a spare KX body. Last year I bought a near mint one in Jessops for £80. The local branch has just sold 2, a rather tatty one for £110 and a better one for £120. This trend has also been followed on the Bay. If you want real price increases, try and get hold of good quality M42 Takumars. The price of these has more than doubled over the last year. Perhaps this is due to the reliability of the bodies and the quality of the glass. Kimbo knows the problem of trying to get an AF body fixed even by Pentax but the older manual bodies seem to go on for much longer. As to the glass, a good prime lens and some of the older zooms were built to produce an image rather than to a budget.

With this sort of market, the bigger film manufacturers are not going to pull the plug just yet. The smaller guys like Ilford with a much more limited market will go the the wall but if Kodak are still happy to produce 110 (my wife will go bananas if she can't use her Auto 110) they will keep selling 35mm for some time.

Kim

It depends on how far back you go, but Dixons started off as a photographic dealer, and they did most certainly sell leica and eveything else. However, over the years they have drifted into being something else and the photographic side has dwindled. I suppose these days they are an electronics store.

I think that the biggest contributing factor in the acceleration of the switch to digital is the fact that you can now treat your memory card like a reusable film and drop it in to Boots (et al). You no longer need the computer.

I'm not so sure about the current push on dye sub printers though - too expensive to run and limited in print size.

From my perspective, the major push to make me fully digital was that I got control back (once we reached 5mp and quality was acceptable) - My darkroom went when I bought my first flat many years ago, apart from the lack of space, I needed every penny for the deposit.

Film will remain for niche enthusiast and high art markets - but it won't be long before anything else professional is digital. image libraries are, the press has been for some time and all our product and brochure stuff here at work is digital.

Interesting point about the price increases for M42 gear. I have to say that I think it is collectors/speculators, rather than people buying them to use them.

I myself am looking out for an MX and and LX at a reasonable price. But they won't get much use. They'll join the Super A, the Leica IIIC and the Spotmatic in the display cabinet, to be taken out occasionally and admired, but only seldom actually used.

It's a hassle to use pre-set lenses, however good they may be.

Jessops may say they are still processing lots of film, but that's largely due to the fact that many photoshops (including Dixons) have closed and the remainder are picking up their trade.

Counting Dixons, which closed a few months go, we used to have five camera shops locally (within about a mile), and now there is one.

As for a return to film, I agree with what Terry says; control is one of the main advantages of digital, plus immediacy, and low costs. I don't see many people giving that up, and the anti-computer brigade is elderly, and will die out.

Hardly any new film cameras have been introduced in the last year or two, and it won't be long before virtually all the major manufacturers pull out of film cameras altogether. The only choice will be Seagulls from China.

One aspect of Ebay that is sometimes overlooked is its role in recycling. People are now far more likely to buy secondhand than they used to, and people are more likely to sell equipment they are not using, rather than let it gather dust. This inevitably reduces the volume of new goods sold, and especially of new goods where there is a large amount of good quality secondhand alternatives available. Nice old film cameras are a prime example.

G

What is particularly good about eBay in my experience is that despite all the scams/shysters and downright crooks out there buyers and sellers of photographic tend to be nice people.

Based on agreements with my wife, all new camera gear I have bought in the last few years has been financed buy the sale of other stuff (unfortunately I've run out now !).

I have often had extended e-mail discussions with buyers, bidders and sellers and I have acquired bargains, and buyers have acquired bargains from me.

A (long) example. I bought a Sigma 70-300 Apo which would not autofocus on my iST DS. The seller immediately offered a full refund although we agreed on a partial refund as the lens was optically perfect. I subsequently found that the lens would autofocus on other camera bodies and when a teleconverter was used. I contact the seller and agreed to refund part of his refund but then "sniped" a brand new Tamron lens also on eBay. In the meantime the Sigma started to focus correctly in all circumstances on my iST DS .

I sold the Sigma (describing its focus issue with scrupulous honesty) and refunded the original seller half of the difference between the net cost to me and the selling price (phew).

At any point I could have simply kept his partial refund to increase my profit but the thought never crossed my mind.

I agree about the photo people being generally OK on Ebay, although there are, sadly, exceptions.

However, part of the skill of using Ebay is spotting the shysters. Thanks to a mixture of luck, caution, and a learned ability to read between the lines, I have had no real problems after over a hundred purchases.

Where things have gone wrong, the seller has alsways rectified the problem to my satisfaction. I'm pretty happy with Ebay.

But just for fun, look at these:

7536923201
7535292460
7535856566

The first seller stole the picture and most of the text from the second, but lied about having sold the lens hood, because he didn't have one. In saying this, he was also implying that the picture was of his actual camera, whereas it clearly wasn't.

He also borrowed some text from No 3.

His postage is excessive, and the total weight is in excess of the maximum for 2nd Class mail, so that won't work.

One to avoid, methinks.

G