Adobe DNG Converter and Camera RAW plug-in

My question is not strictly anything to do with Pentax but as Adobe Photoshop and its various 'tools' are quite widely used amongst us Pentax users I thought it relevant to pose these questions here.

I use Photoshop CS and would rather not upgrade to CS2 at the moment because I find the CS version to be perfectly adequate for my purposes.

I have just been testing the benefits of the DNG Converter & Camera RAW 2.4 version with .PEF files from my istD and it seems to offer great savings on disk space for long term storage of digital negatives. After a lossless conversion and choosing not to embed the original .PEF file, the resulting .DNG file is about half the size of the original .PEF

My main question is, if in the future one decides to upgrade our current Pentax DSLR models to newer ones like istD2 (or whatever it will be called) or the 645D for instance, will the present DNG/RAW converter work with the RAW output from these cameras since each successive Pentax offering so far seems to produce slightly different .PEF formats as to 'break' existing software for which we then have to await updates.

I also use Pixmantec's RawShooterPremium which supports DNG and all Pentax PEF's that I use at the moment. My worry is that in the future I may be forced to update Photoshop to a newer version just to keep up to date with its DNG/RAW converters. I'm assuming here that the DNG converter requires the camera raw plug-in to pre-process a .PEF file before producing a .dng file.

If one looks at the downloads available for Photoshop, the DNG/RAW update for CS stops at version 2.4. Version 3.x is in the CS2 section. Does anybody know if the CS2 versions of these work with CS?

Does anyone else on here use DNG for storage?

EDIT:

I've just checked the Adobe download site and the DNG Camera RAW 3.3 version will only work with CS2, not CS. Pentax cameras istDL & istDS2 were added in version 3.3 which means anybody with these models who wants to only use Adobe's solution must use CS2.

EDIT 2:

I guess I should have checked myself first. The DNG converter in version 3.3 seems to work OK with the CaneraRAW plugin version 2.4 for CS. It also seems to work with RawShooterPremium. Thje CameraRAW 3.3 plugin however does not work with PS CS, only CS2.

Pentax possibly has an opportunity here, natively produce DNG files in-camera. Samsung already do in one of their models. . . now there's a thought.

The PEF files from different models are slightly different and do need upgrades to RAW software to handle them. You can already see the mounting problem for the future, unless of course Adobe's DNG format becomes the norm. But what if it doesn't?

Personally I am far happier for all sorts of reasons to stick with the best quality JPEG. Then all these problems just don't exist and future compatibility is more assured. Not 100% certain, but much more certain than with all these RAW files.

John,

I think that in the fairly near future RAW format must be standardised, as are JPG, TIFF et al.

If that doesn't happen, upgrading cameras in the future is going to be a very expensive process if we are forced to upgrade our software as well.

I'm not suggesting that one particular manufacturer (Adobe) should have the responsibility of producing and 'policing' the 'standard', just that it needs to be done, and soon.

Maybe Adobe's DNG is the way forward, if it is, then in-camera conversion to that format is a must.

I have tried one more test. I have a Fuji F810 P&S camera which produces RAW files. I ran some of its files through Adobes DNG converter and then tried opening the resulting files with RawShooter. No joy. Photoshop opens them fine because the CameraRAW 2.4 plug-in supports that camera, RawShooter doesn't.

My contention is that Adobe's DNG converter is not actually a standalone converter at all, more a compression system that still relies on the underlying RAW converter beneath it. If it were, RawShooter ought to be able to open the files.

Shooting high quality JPG is probably good enough for many situations but RAW is so much more forgiving. Colour temperature and exposure adjustments are a breeze using RAW. I think most of us have at one time or another shot a sequence using the wrong WB setting, I know I certainly have.

Peter,
It's not entirely as simple as you make out in the above post

The Adobe DNG is an open standard (that is: anyone can download the spec and write apps to handle that spec). However, there's a wide range of options within that spec. It is not just "a compression option" as you mention.

The process of taking any RAW file and converting to DNG requires intimate knowledge of the originating RAW format. The DNG itself can specify lossless encoding (unlike JPG which throws information away to squeeze it smaller), but it doesn't have to compress. (The Samsung top end digicam uses DNG but not compressed )

I quite agree that the next range of Pentax cameras should use DNG format - I've been championing that since DNG came out. Hopefully, with Samsung's existing commitment to DNG the new Pentax DSLR/DMF will use DNG.

I reckon there's probably something else amiss with the Fuji + RawShooter. It could be they've not followed the standard 100%.

Personally, I would try Capture One too. I've tried all the RAW convertor apps, and C1 consistently produces much better quality (more "film like" output. (There's an interesting review: http://www.ephotozine.com/equipment/tests/testdetail.cfm?test_id=426 - much of the comparison is equally valid to the cheaper LE version that I use).

Hope that helps!
Matt

Matt,

Apologies if I over-simplified the process. I have made a couple more tests using Fuji .RAF files from my F810 and have tried outputting to uncompressed DNG files. I've also tried converting from Mosaic to linear. Still no joy with RawShooter.

In your previous post, do I understand correctly that you think that perhaps Pixmantec haven't stuck to the DNG rules ?

My .RAF files open fine in Photoshop as DNG where PS first opens the CameraRaw plugin to facilitate RAW corrections.

I note from following the provided link that there is a trial version of C1 available. I think I might give it a go.

If CS opens the resulting DNG file and RawShooter doesn't - that's the only conclusion I can come to!
The DNG standard is not a simple one - it's as complicated as the original RAW formats. The only difference is that it's completely documented and open (although it does have the extensions available to "tuck away" camera specific data such as Nikon custom white balance settings - but those extensions shouldn't affect any application that can't read them. It should just skip over the unknown bits).

I would say definitely give C1LE a go. Before you freak out on it, check out my quick guide first: https://www.pentaxuser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1765
To be honest, I like the RawShooter interface with the ability to tag images etc. But I simply cannot beat the C1LE output quality. Adobe's convertor comes close, and does allow upsizing (which the C1LE version doesn't do, but the expensive Pro version does). Occasionally I find it easier to just open in PS-CS2 directly, but for the most part I use C1LE exclusively.

Matt

Would it be feasible for Pentax to include a DNG format for existing DSLR's with a firmware upgrade, or is too much "hardwired" into the circuitry?

I can't really think that there is any hard-wired circuitry involved. The hardware in most cameras is the same generically. Ignoting the CCD or CMOS sensor, there is a piece of wizard electronics that converts an image to bits 'n bytes, these are then passed to software/firmware for further processing if necessary. It's this software/firmware that makes the difference and I personally think that Pentax could provide a DNG converter retrospectively in an upgrade to all of its DSLR range (*istD first please Mr Pentax). Trouble is, will it take longer for the camera to process?

Hardwired - no.

Take too long - not in uncompressed form (so the DNG files would be pretty much the same size as the PEF)

Feasible - probably not. Firmware development is a serious business (it's the business I'm in), and the process of redesigning an already working system, integrating another huge chunk of code, and fully testing it costs a serious amount of time and money. I suspect they'd rather spend that time and money (especially time!) on the new gear - because that's where the revenue is.

But you can wish...

Matt

For C1/C1 Pro users, be carefull, C1 does not yet open DNG files.

I converted all my PEF files to DNG, wrote them to DVD and was about to delete the PEF files, but I thought I would see if the DNG files displayed the preview JPG in CI...........Ah!...........Phew.............C1 does not open DNG files, updated is slated for "later in the year".
If you convert and delete the PEF files your stuck with Adobe RAW converter or some other software but NOT C1 or C1 Pro.

I found another PEF capable software to evaluate direct from Japan:-

SilkyPix 2E - http://www.isl.co.jp/SILKYPIX/english/

It is the fastest RAW editor I have come across. It is not free, costs about 16,000 YEN.

Can we offer you a commission Matt?

In some cases all you need to do is change the header to get the converter to see the file as an old friend instead of an alien life-form. It's worth a try

If only it were that easy
To develop firmware you need two things (apart from the skill & experience of course):
1) The correct development environment
2) The firmware source code

Point (1) is expensive. For example, the development system and operating system license for my current commercial project cost a fair bit - i.e. I could probably buy one of each Pentax lens and body ever made and still have change over.

Point (2) would be a no-go. There's just no way Pentax will release the source code to an unknown entity. Source code represents knowledge and time, and you never just give that away Mind you, I'd certainly be onto the challenge if they changed their mind!! (Hint: Pentax - you could release it under strict NDA, that's no problem with me, I do it all the time!)

Without the source code, you have to resort to hacking the firmware... and that involves serious amounts of time and patience, and only enables you to produce limited changes to the original firmware. (It's the software equivalent of completely taking apart a Pentax LX without a manual )

Sorry to disappoint!

But as Arthur Dent right said - you can "hack" the header of the PEF file to lie about the camera type I did that with an *ist-DL file (just changed the "L" to an "S" in the header with a hex editor and voilá!)

Matt

I switched back to using top quality jpg, as John says above, all the questions and half-answers and future questions become mostly irrelevant as to the future of any of the so-called RAW formats.