ICC = I'm completely confused?

Trying to get my system colour-managed, and feel like I'm making some good progress, even as I wrestle with the logic of it all! And Don has been very helpful, as a fellow Mac-user, via PM. However, still a couple questions.

First, my system:

iMac (all-in-one) with Tiger; Silkypix 3.0; PSE 6 (just installed - not using much yet); hueyPro.

Planning to do my printing at a local pro lab, and not at home. The lab has sent me their ICC profile.

Ok, my questions:

1. Where do I put the ICC profile (in Silkypix, PSE6, or the sytem?) and how?

2. Are there different ICC profiles for PC and Mac?

3. The lab sent me a test image (hard copy and email), which I would use to eyeball my screen calibration. Should I just ignore that altogether, and use the huey for my monitor and their ICC for output? If I shouldn't ignore it, how do I coordinate it with the aforementioned?

Grateful for your assistance!

Hi Keith,
I will try to answer your questions, but I am afraid you won't like the answers.
First of all some basics;
The idea behind working in a color managed and calibrated environment is to gain absolute control over the outcome from camera to print.
That means:
Calibrate your monitor.
If possible work in a light neutral environment.
(so don't try to judge a beautiful sunset picture while a beautiful sunrise effects your workspace.)
Use raw and work in the highest color space available in camera which usually is AdobeRGB.
After downloading on your I Mac post process the file in the widest color space available in your raw converter which is ProphotoRGB or AdobeRGB.
(The first one being the widest color space available.)
After editing your file soft proof the file for output.(the print)
(This is matching the screen impression with the print impression.)
After soft proofing print out the file using a tailor made printer profile for a specific paper.
OK.....take a moment to grasp the above..........................
Now to answering your questions:
1#:
Your monitor profile made by the Huey pro is automatically installed in your profile directory of your OS on your hard disk. It is used automatically by every image editing program on your mac.
So you don't put in inside Silkypix or PSE 6.
2#;
Don't confuse color profiles for monitors with ICC profiles for printers.
A monitor color profile is unique for your monitor in your given situation.
A ICC printer profile is exchangeable between different computers when using the same printer/paper combination.
3#:
In my opinion it pointless to go this route. It should be: You deliver the ICC printer profile to the Pro Lab and not the other way around.
Just think about it. How great is the chance the lab uses exactly the same set up as you did. Every Pro Lab I know and use here in The Netherlands let me provide my own ICC profiles to them,
so they can use that for printing my files which were color managed, edited and soft proofed under my conditions.
And to make matters a bit worse for you; PSE 6 won't allow working in 16 bit AdobeRGB and can't soft proof. For that you must have PS CS.

Is everything hopeless in your given situation??
No it is not.
Work on a calibrated monitor.
Edit your raw files in 16 bit ProPhotoRGB using Silkypix.
Convert files to 8 bit jpeg's in the sRGB color space and send these to your lab for printing. Chances are you get the best results given your situation.
Sorry for the long response, but this is not explainable in a few words. At least.........not by me
Martin.

HUH?
Malo - you are very much mistaken in your understanding of colour management, and by doing what you are doing you are actually losing control over the image! Please read on

Ok, let me try and explain this and clear up the matter...


You are already using a Huey, so your monitor on the iMac is already profiled (and actually using an ICC profile of its own - even though you might not know it).

However, you raise the question of a printer ICC profile (as provided by a lab). You need to know and do these things:

1) Install the ICC profile into your system (I know where this is on Windows - not so sure about Mac) It needs to be installed so Photoshop can find it (you can't load an arbitrary ICC profile from anywhere on the disk). See this page: http://www.proamimaging.com/profile.html

2) You work on your image ignoring that ICC profile. In other words, work in AdobeRGB (or sRGB if you have to). Use AdobeRGB because it can handle more colours (basically). So, in Silkypix and Photoshop you just work in AdobeRGB.

3) Now, the work... when you have the final image you need to map your image into the final colour profile of your target. This is done with Photoshop (normally). Unfortunately Elements doesn't have the full interface to the colour management (at least it didn't).

Why you map to the printer's ICC
When transforming from one colour space to another something has to give - the target may not be able to render the vibrant red that you want, for example.

So the transformation will "squish" your colours into the target colours. However, what if you needed an absolute colour match (because you have a company logo that needs to be exact, for example)? A process of linear transformation may shift the colour of that exact colour.

There are many decisions in this transformation process - and this is what the "Intent" is within Photoshop when mapping between ICC profiles. The most commonly used intents are "Perceptual" and "Relative Colormetric". However, you are probably best using Relative Colormetric (because Perceptual can still produce some colour shifts).

Think of it a bit like currency - your system works in dollars and theirs works in euros. To have complete control, you do the conversion. If you let them do the conversion from your profile then you stand the risk of having a variance of exchange rate

Another reason why you do the conversion yourself is because Photoshop can show you what colours will have a problem on the target device. You may have an all red image where one intent will clip the reds and leave you with little colour detail. The "Soft Proof" option in Photoshop will allow you to do this.

How you transform into the target ICC
On Photoshop you use the "Edit / Convert to Profile" (on CS2). Older versions had the convert to profile under the Image menu IIRC.

Normally you:
* Select the target profile (which will be the printer profile)
* Select the engine "Adobe (ACE)"
* Set the intent to "Relative Colormetric"
* Tick the "Black Point Compression"
and click ok.

Inside Photoshop the image should look exactly the same
Now, save the file as a JPG under a different directory (I use the name of the lab). DO NOT OVERWRITE YOUR ORIGINAL FILE!!!

Depending on the lab and their workflow, when you save using "File / Save As" you have the option of embedding the ICC profile in the image. It is probably best to tick the box to embed the profile (although it will increase the size of each JPG by the size of the ICC profile - which can be large).

Now you send those converted files off to the lab for printing - and you will get absolutely, and exactly what you saw on Photoshop (assuming you've followed the process properly!).


There are ways to do this without Photoshop... let me know if that is your situation and I'll try and help out!


Hope that's helped clarify some things!!
Matt

Does it make any difference which colour space you have set the camera to if you are capturing in raw format? I was under the impression that the choice between AdobeRGB or sRGB in the camera only affected the jpeg format output. I thought that if using raw, the image captured uses the whole colour space achieveable by the sensor.

Duncan

Yes, and no.
Choosing a colour space in the camera makes no difference to what you can extract from the RAW file.
However, the embedded JPG inside the RAW will be in the selected colour space. Additionally if you use RAW+ in the camera (RAW+JPG) then the attached JPG will be in the selected colour space.
So, it makes sense to select sRGB in the camera when shooting RAW+JPG (and to some extent RAW only) so you have access to a quick non-PP'd JPG file.

However, as pointed out, you should choose the widest appropriate colour space when outputting from RAW and working in Photoshop.

* If you understand colour management, then AdobeRGB would be a good choice.
* If you don't understand colour management, then sRGB is a better choice (because you don't have to think and most printers and labs assume sRGB)
* If you want critical control then use ProPhoto - but you must use 16-bit TIFF for this colour space.

Does that help?!
Matt

Yes, and no.

The bit I'm now struggling with is the limited colour space that can be displayed by most monitors. The vast majority of monitors cannot display the full AdobeRGB gamut, and many struggle to fill even the sRGB space. So, given that this is the case, and assuming that all post processing is done via a screen that cannot even replicate AdobeRGB, I'm struggling to see what is the point in using an even bigger colour space such as ProPhoto, as there's bound to be colours in there that are way beyond the capabilities of the output device you are using to view your image on or print with.

Is this simply trying to retain as much information as possible so that when the conversion (squashing) is done from, in this case ProPhoto, to your working output space, be it monitor or printer, the best estimation of what was originally present can be achieved?

I'm assuming that this is the case as there are some parts of the spectrum that are beyond the AdobeRGB space which CAN be replicated on a monitor but cannot be printed using most commercial printing technology. Likewise there are colours that can be printed that cannot be displayed on a monitor. By using the bigger space such as ProPhoto, am I right in thinking that this will give the biggest leeway possible for when the inevitable squashing takes place between the colour space profiles of the various output devices?

Duncan

Hi Matt,
Please explain
Because if I want to try out a new paper/printer combination i can make a ICC print profile or ask for it to Epson, HP or other specialized companies.
I then can provide my lab with that profile and the file they should print for me. Chance is they have that profile all ready. But thats not the point. Point is I can provide them with my own print profiles if i choose so. They even advertise with that possibility here.
Everything else you explained is correct but in your explaining you use the full version of PS as example.
The OP stated he uses Silkypix and PS Elements. None of these give him the option to soft proof. Thats why I said; It's pointless for him to go that route. You end your answer with:
Thats why i suggested the second option.
Best regards,
Martin.

Martin and Matt,

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to give such full responses. I suspect that colour management is an issue for lots of us on the forum.

Matt, I'm going to have to read and re-read your post a little more carefully (you've got a great way of explaining these technical issues!) after work tonight to see how much of it I "get".

Any ideas about how to go about this with PS Elements 6?

And other than working in Adobe RGB, are there any implications for working in Silkypix?

Thanks!

Malo,
If you are using their printer, and their paper - use their profile for the final output. They will print it "straight" without any need for colour mapping on their site.

If you are using their printer and your paper - you are not colour managed at all. The ICC profile is a combination of the individual printer PLUS the paper PLUS the ink (for inkjets that is). Likewise for photographic output - it's the combination that counts. Labs will get their equipment professionally profiled (which is not a quick job, and definitely not cheap).

If you are using your printer and your paper - you are on your own.

You seem to be confused about when and why you use ICC profiles.

I missed the fact that the OP had PSE. Ok - I can still do it on Windows with a little command line tool that is available free. But I don't know how it can be done on Windows.

So, yes, they are better off sticking with sRGB.

Think of colour spaces like you think of the histogram.
Trying to squish too much and you get posterisation.
Pushing too hard and you get clipping.

It's the same with colour - you can get colour posterisation or clipping (called "gamut clipping". That's where soft-proofing comes in too - even if your display can't hack it, the soft proof gives you a rendition with option to show out of gamut colours.


To be honest, most people don't need to worry too much and can just stick to AdobeRGB or sRGB. However, when you want to colour-match (company logo colours, specific product colours etc) then you have to start treading the colour management minefield for real

Matt

Martin, I must have been composing my first response at the same time as you!

I obviously don't understand colour management yet, but am willing to learn and do the work.

From what I can gather from regular posters on the forum, many of us are using something like SP and PSE rather than CS2/3 - but hopefully we're not at a complete loss!

I think PSE v6 can do what Matt is suggesting:
"Set up color management
In the Editor, choose Edit > Color Settings.
Select one of the following color management options, then click OK.
No Color Management Leaves your image untagged. This option uses your monitor profile as the working space. It removes any embedded profiles when opening images, and does not tag when saving.

Always Optimize Colors For Computer Screens Uses sRGB as the RGB working space; the Grayscale working space is Gray Gamma 2.2. Preserves embedded profiles, and assigns sRGB when opening untagged files.

Always Optimize For Printing Uses Adobe RGB as the RGB working space; the Grayscale working space is Dot Gain 20%. Preserves embedded profiles and assigns Adobe RGB when opening untagged files.

Allow Me To Choose Lets you choose sRGB (the default) or Adobe RGB when opening untagged files.


When you save a file, select ICC Profile in the Save As dialog box. "
cheers
bb2

BB2 - yes, PSE can handle sRGB and AdobeRGB. Only (All versions from v2 did this)
When a lab provides their output profile then you can't do this in PSE at all


Keith,

There is a conversion tool in the "LittleCMS" package that will map the colours here. However, it is available only in source code and Windows executable (though it may work under Wine with OSX).
There is also ArgyllCMS which is compiled for OS X, but I'm not sure what tools are included.

Unfortunately I rarely even see a Mac, let alone use one

The learning curve for CM is steep, but worth it if you can get your head around it

Matt

EDIT: The ArgyllCMS does appear to allow transformation of a TIFF file with this utility. Presumably this is available in the Mac environment. You may find that Apple's ColorSync utility will allow you to transform the colours and reassign a profile to existing JPG files... but you'll need to get a Mac-head to work it out for you

crazy week.

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/icc/using_printer_profiles.htm

skimmed this article...hope it helps.

I'm sure if the icc profile is mac compatible, all you need to do is drop it in the right folder on your mac and select it when exporting the file from your editor program.

now, damned if I can remember which file folder.....

Thanks for the link Don.
However, that just loads the profile into the OSX... not do the transformation.

They do have a stand alone profile converter for TIFF images HERE - but looks like it's Windows only. (And doesn't do JPG)

But the article is a good one
Matt

maybe it's time for the original poster to switch to Aperture.
It's easy enough to add icc profiles to it's export/print functions.

I know what works for me..but I'm not so sure how to set that up with silkypix.....