Full frame DSLR ?

I am not going to say to much, about this issue. Time will tell I think.
But if Pentax is smart, they go the same route as Nikon did, with their FX sensor in the D3. FF for the wide angles, and the benefit of a cropped sensor when using tele. Best of both worlds, and user friendly.
Martin.

Makes sense to me!

Of course the other option when a FF arrives, is keep your existing crop body as well, best of both worlds!

Technology will always move on at a relentless pace regardless. At some point, enough is enough, but the only person who can say that is yourself! If the K10 is all you need, keep it, it's a great camera, there's nothing wrong with it!

As some of you may know, I'm in the mobile game, and the iPhone intrigues me, just from the approach and different way of thinking. They are currently releasing 1 model a year, the current upgrade is more of the same, just a bit faster with a GPS chipset. Nokia last year released over 40 different models, so many it gives me a headache. Apple have decided to take a long look, come up with a unique proposition as well as a unique product, aimed at a specific market at done it well. (Before anyone says anything I know it's not perfect, but they are only on their 2nd phone for heavens sake!).

When the Playstation 3 was released, there was a massive out cry that PS2 games were not guaranteed to work on it, with morons all over the internet shouting that they are going to leave Playstation and go over to Xbox because they are so disgusted about it (yup, you guessed the new Xbox can't play all the older Xbox games either). Sounds familiar I know, and to all those whingers who complained that they had a whole library of PS2 games they wanted to play and what the heck were they supposed to do about that, I just said, in hushed tones 'use your Playstation 2'

People complained profusely that the Playstation 3 was too enormously expensive and no one would buy it (from day of release, it is still being sold at BELOW cost price), it is so much more expensive than the Xbox (add up the difference between standard features and add ons and the Xbox is more expensive) and Playstation 2 owners have had their day (over 100 million sold, still in production 7 years later), Bluray will fail (it's the HD standard now).

Thats just one example of technology moving on, there are many others, it's relentless, it won't stop. The biggest thing that most people tend to forget is their level of choice. You can move on, move up or stay where you are, there are no 'wrong' choices if what you choose is what you need.

I chose Pentax from either of the equivalently priced C & N models purely because of the way it felt, it just felt right. For once in my life I made a tech purchase without religious homework, thought I had made a major mistake, but have since found out how wonderful it is. Knowing that a 'Halo' model is in the works is great news, as it creates aspiration and plenty of interest, probably new lenses as well, no bad thing. Not to mention having another stick to beat the 'others' with!

PS, just let me know if I'm rambling on too much!

Snipped all the rambling

I used to be exactly the same before I moved to Spain last year, even to the fact I bought and sold mobile phones on Ebay (I have 2 accounts with over 1600 positive feedback between them and I still have my JAF box, twister, cables and various other tools somewhere.)
I would buy any new gadget in an instant (its easy when you have money burning a hole in your pocket) without giving it a second thought but since I moved here and am living off the money I earned from Ebay and other sources I have virtually gone into reverse.
Enjoy it while you can I say

Since we are rambling, how about the recently announced Hasselblad - a snip at circa £25k :

Nah, 50 MP camera with only 400 ISO, not techy enough, and definately not shiny enough!

Could you please provide a link or source for this?

Thanks.

Sure, no probs:-

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/samsung_hints_at_fullframe_sensor_for_professional_digital_slr_camera_news_227234.html

Thanks for posting that.

I am in the market for a wide angle zoom lens and it would obviously be nice to keep my future options open as far as possible.

That said on the basis of this evidence alone it seems to me your enthusiasm for the prospect of a Samsung (/Pentax) full frame dslr is not sustainable.

Who knows though.

Been reading about this so much all over the place, that I forget where everything is, and my enthusiasm isn't just based on that link. When you asked for a link, I just googled for it, copied and pasted it here within 20 seconds. Finding this information is easy enough.

Read into it what you will, but I am glad that Samsung is prepared to invest into 'our product'. They could pack it all in tomorrow if they liked, I just don't think they will!

Say you are the CEO of Nikon.

Your main competitor, a much bigger company, makes its own CMOS sensors.

Another, up and coming, competitor, a much bigger company, makes your sensors.

A third company, also massive, has just produced a 14MP CMOS APS-C sensor.

You might think of approaching the third company to make 135 format sensors for you, thus making you less dependent on the second company.

G

Good point, which raises other questions!

Who would sell more FF cameras? Sony or Pentax/Samsung? Biased opinion says Pentax/Samsung would sell more, but Sony could only if it gets there 1st!

Either way, it's good fun watching, it's just like a great big soap opera (like football is!)

And the other thing is, why do Americans say 'Ny Kon' and not 'Nik on' ?

I'd be quite content to see Samsung sell its sensors to Nikon (or Canon, or any other company) - the more they supply then the cheaper they are to produce (economies of scale and all that) so it would be a benefit to K-mount users too.

After all, supplying sensors to Nikon (and Pentax / Samsung) didn't harm Sony or their own camera division.

I did actually google myself prior to asking and found the link you posted, but frankly assumed you had something far more substantive to base your position on.
Strictly speaking Samsung have so far invested nothing. What they have apparently done is deployed some of their significant R&D budget on developing a full frame sensor (salaries, materials, etc.). They will invest if and only if they develop a viable design *and* build and equip a semiconductor fabrication plant to crank these things out. However, such a decision would simply be inconsistent with their strategy.

I haven’t seen any comprehensive market studies on the digital camera market but from what I can quickly piece together Samsung have gone from nowhere in market share terms to becoming a big player in the overall market.

It seems they may have around 15% of the total worldwide digital camera market, estimated at around 130 million units per annum=20 million units. . Furthermore, without basing this on much I would assume they make sensors for a substantial portion of their market share of the 630 million camera phones sold annually. This is what Samsung do; big, big volume.

By contrast the market for dSLRs is less than 10 million units per annum, of which I would guess that the full frame segment is most certainly less than 5% and probably less than 2% in volume terms. This means the total full frame market is less than 500,000 units per annum of which Samsung have a current market share of 0%.

Even if they could poach all of the Nikon and Canon business simultaneously this would be a tiny, tiny sideline that is just not consistent with Samsung’s high volume, market leader strategy.

That said the d SLR market has been growing, and basic business planning/prudence could warrant R&D is committed to have designs available that cater for any future market eventuality, notwithstanding the fact that any R&D pipeline - never mind one as big as Samsung’s - will contain a large majority of projects that never make it to commercialisation.

This view would be subject to greater uncertainty if your Sony/Playstation analogy were accurate but unfortunately this is simply not the case. Sony have always made either marginal or negative returns on the Playstation hardware itself but have been handsomely rewarded for this seeming act of generosity by vast profits from captive sales of in-house developed software and fat royalties from third party publishers; a cross-subsidy. Conversely Samsung have no such means of financial compensation since they have farmed out all lens production to third-parties, as far as I'm aware.

Furthermore, the investment required in new lenses to switch systems for existing - and likely also a majority of prospective - full frame customers is in no way comparable to that of a few video games at £10-20 a pop.

I don’t know the dSLR market in any detail but I do know that markets where you have two dominant suppliers (in this case Nikon and Canon) tend to generate terrible profits across the board, and see little reason to suppose it is different in this case (just look at the complete exit of Konica-Minolta a few years ago).

In such circumstances it is nevertheless possible for small players to make decent profits by carving out niche markets, but entering a highly concentrated full frame segment certainly doesn’t fit that bill. And baring them hitting on a winning formula, I unfortunately see a somewhat higher probability of Pentax going the way of the dodo than launching a shiny new full frame dSLR.

Basically, Pentax/Samsung would have to sell a lot of bodies and new 135-format lenses to make the whole project worthwhile, and I don't see who is going to buy them. I can't see a 135-format body selling for less than £1,500.

G

Blimey, lots of 'apparently' 'haven't seen' 'It seems' 'without basing this on much' 'I would assume' 'I would guess' and 'I don't know' in there!

Basically what you are saying is, you don't know, to be honest, nor do I!!! Hence the Soap opera comment! I was piecing together what is possible from what I know, you have replied, with what you believe. That's fair enough, just depends how you want to interpret what you read.

.

'Invested nothing' and 'deployed some of their significant R&D budget' in the same paragraph! So spending money then?! Viable design could already be there, just make what you have larger, if you do that, you already have the plant! Their strategy, as they have already announced is to be 3rd top digital camera manufacturer by 2010. Somehow you think developing a FF sensor would simply be inconsistent with their strategy, I think developing sensors for cameras might help them sell more cameras, but hay ho, each to their own!

Perhaps seeing them might help then! Yes Samsung have become a big player, they have ambitions to be a bigger one, hence more products, hence developing.. you can see where I'm going there.

How can you be a market leader if you're not in the market!?

Taken out of context, I was just trying to say technologoy always moves on, and is not necessarily compatible with future products! No, Samsung don't make lenses, but Pentax do! If they needed them, who would make them? What would they fit? Again, if this happens, good news for us Pentax users!

I don't know the dSLR market in detail either! Canon 2nd quarter profits this year $1.46 billion, Nikon 2nd quarter profits this year $200 million. (for those that don't know a quarter is 3 months!) Yup, terrible profits. I suppose it is different in this case?

Very true. Pentax - decent profits - niche market, suits me fine!

Is that not a niche market?

Yes you do. No I don't. I'm reading the information and being positive. You're reading the information and being negative. It's kinda why I am on a Pentax forum! With the backing and partnership of 2 multi billion dollar organisations, I really don't have any concerns!

Think I'm rambling again!