*ist DS "camera customisation" to use K-lens.

Hi,

I hope this is correct forum strand.

I've been offered a couple of lens. I'm reasonably confident they are physically comaptible, but will they require much 'camera customisation' through the camera's menu system to use effectively. I'm not put off if this is possible because they're reasonably priced and I'd enjoy the challenge, ...... nothing ventured, nothing gained....... etc. The lens are:

1. Centon (Jessop's own brand) 50mm f1.7 standard lens.

2. Makinon 500mm Mirror Lens - K Fit (fixed f8 aperture).

3. Cosina 24mm Wide Angle Lens f2.8-f22, K fit.

Any advice gratefuly received.

Regards, Colin

I don't know these lenses, but in principle they should work fine.

You simply have to change a menu setting to tell the camera to use non-A lenses. You do this once, and never again.

The lenses need to be used in manual mode, or in program mode at full aperture only. This is quite fun if you have a lens like the f1.2 50mm.

Good luck

George

Yes, but if these lenses can only be used at full aperture does the metering system set the shuttter speed correctly to produce a correctly exposed picture. ? There seems to be a lot of confusion about how one can use K lenses and method which must be used to do so and result in correctly exposed pics. Has anyone got the definitive answer ??

On the *ist D, any K lens can be used at any aperture with correct metering, provided that updated firmware is used. What is stated in the *ist D manual is out of date, and should be ignored.

I believe that the same applies to the *ist DS, but John Riley thinks otherwise, based on what that camera's manual says. He is checking his camera and will report back shortly. See the thread titled "Photo Browser Problems".

I should stress that I am a D owner, and have never used a DS.

George

Well, here looks like a good place to give half the answer!

I've tried setting the custom function to "Permitted" to use the aperture ring, and both an M series 50mm and a "A" series 50mm operated at full aperture only with aperture priority auto exposure, just like the manual says.

I haven't had time to try out the same with any J or DA lenses (which have no aperture rings) but it seems logical that these would also only operate at full aperture as the permanent A setting that they work on has been disabled.

You mentioned, George, that the option was only to prevent the inadvertant use of the aperture ring, but I don't see how that would make any more difference than with any other A series or later camera body?

I'll let you know later about the J and DA lenses with the *istDS as soon as time allows.

In the meantime, the manual appears to be correct so far, although it isn't brilliant in terms of the English translation. In fact, parts I would describe as esoteric.....

Obviously, I am talking about the D here, not the DS.

I disagree that it "seems logical" for the camera not to function properly when set to fire "off-A", because the A function is not being disabled in any way. With the lens set to A, the camera functions exactly the same way in all modes however the switch is set.

I am surprised that the DS should behave differently, given the outcry over the lack of this functionality when the D came out, and given the fact that DS publicity says that it works with all lenses.

When you did your test, was the A lens set on A? If it was, then I agree that the camera is less functional. However, if it was not set at A, then there is no reduction in functionality because it wouldn't have fired anyway with the switch set to prevent use of the aperture ring.

This is the crucial point. Will the camera work properly with an A lens at the A setting irrespective of how the aperture ring switch is set?

There is no point in testing M lenses, or A lenses set off-A, because they wouldn't work anyway with switch off.

What do other DS users find?

George
Come on other DS owners. What is your experience?

Owdsnapper,

This discussion about using manual lenses on the DS doesn't mean they won't work properly. They will, if the camera is set up correctly.

John Riley and I are discussing whether setting the camera to allow the use of M and K lenses impinges on its functionality when using A lenses, so that you have to keep going into the menu to change settings everytime you change from an A lens to an M lens.

I know from my experience with the D that there is no problem. All you have to do is to go into Manual exposure mode. There is no need to change settings in the menu.

I am still waiting for a DS user to set his camera to allow the use of manual aperture lenses, and then to try using an A lens set to A. It works properly on the D. Does it work properly on the DS? If it does, there is no problem.

George

I have to say I have been struggling to follow the discussion!
If it's any help my camera (DS) is and always has been set to "using aperture ring" under custom functions. I also mainly use "A" lenses (set to "A"), and everything seems to work fine.
I only tend to use my camera in manual, but I just checked and all normal viewfinder info including f stop is available in all modes.
Does that answer the question? or am I even more mixed up than I thought?

I think it answers the question, but let's see what JR has to say.

Thanks

George

I have just aquired a DS, and I use it with the custom function set to allow the use of the aperture ring. When in this mode my DA 18-55 closes down to the correct aperture with every photo. No issues here. I will try it with an A lens tomorrow to see if this is any different

I have just pulled an A lens off my MZS to try, and lo and behold, everything seems to be fine if you stay in A mode. Of course once you come off A, the camera switches to open aperture mode, so metering or photography of any kind is a no-no. The lens iris will not respond to any commands whilst in this mode, so you need to switch to manual exposure mode and meter accordingly to use either M lenses or A lenses in any other setting apart from A.

This is a stupid set of commands. The aperture coupling is identical in all of the lenses. Why can the DOF command not function in non A settings?

So by my reckoning it is safe to use DA and FA or A lenses on tha A setting when use of aperture is selected within the custom functions sub set

And that seems to be the jist of it - I think the instructions are quite vague and there is more functionality than is siggested.

I tried the DA lens with aperture ring "permitted" and it seemed fine.

It seems that as soon as we select an aperture ring, we are restricted to manual metering and use, although it would be much more useful to be able to use aperture priority as well.

Is there some mechanical linkage missing from these cameras that makes all this necessary? Is it that actually very few people want the ability to use the aperture ring so it isn't worth the cost to put in total compatibility?

I wonder how long it will be before the option is dropped altogether....

I'm glad that's cleared up. The manual is the culprit; Pentax probably copied large chunks of it from the D manual, and the D manual does not reflect how the camera works with the firmware upgrade.

Whilst it is unfortunate that the two DSLRs do not offer the flexibility offered by some earlier bodies when using non-A lenses, I can see Pentax's point.

It must be more expensive to manufacture lenses with an aperture ring, and it must also be more expensive to manufacture bodies with two ways in which to stop the lens down to the required aperture, as well as two ways to do metering. Therefore modern bodies don't have the facility to do this, and nor do the cheaper modern lenses.

However, Pentax misread the market when it first issued the *ist D with no ability to use M and K lenses. There was an outcry, and that is what led to the vital firmware update. The DS came with manual lens capability from the outset.

George

The lens is stopped down by thew use of a purely mechanical linkage, which is present on all Pentax cameras, including the DS. It must be a software/ firmware issue in terms of how the metering deals with lenses not on A mode. Hopefully a further upgrade will sort this as the increased flexibility would be the stuff of which has seen us cling to this marque throughout the years.

In order to get my head round all the confusion which seems to exist about whether older manual K -mount lenses can be used on the istDS, i today carried out a series of tests with my istDS mounted on a tripod in the garden and used a Tokina 50-200 lens that I used with my early Pentax KX. The settings were as follows :-
Focus mode lever = MF
Mode Dial = M
I set stops with the aperture ring f5.6, f8,f11,f16,f22 and using the method I have seen described in another Pentax forum as follows :-
1) Half press the shutter release and hold
2) Whilst holding, press the AE-L button ( eyepiece will darken momentarily whilst an exposure reading is taken.)
3) Press shutter release fully to expose image.

I found that although the shutter speeds selected by the camera and which show in the EXIF data were incrementally correct for selected aperture, the images produced became progressively mor over exposed from f5.6 to f22.

Conclusion :- Lens was not stopping down from full aperture. !!!! I remain ready to be proved wrong if it is is explained what I have done incorrectly.