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What to charge for music festival pics??

saxon
Posted 08/08/2014 - 17:16 Link
I'm an airline pilot by profession but a recent ankle problem has led me to consider photography as more than just a 33 year long hobby and might be a potential back-up plan if the pilot career ends up going down the drain.

Our local successful pub runs an annual music festival with several bands and an audience of around 2000 people attending. I decided to have a chat to the landlord beforehand and asked if he had anyone photographing the event. It turned out that the guy they usually use (who is a keen amateur) was away and so he was delighted for me to do it. We didn't discuss pricing, he did agree that I could sell some of my landscape work off the walls of his pub and of course I would gain valuable experience and exposure by doing it.

I spent from 4.30pm until after midnight shooting intensively. The landlord wanted lots of candid pictures of the audience and also lots of pictures of a rather unglamorous burger van. I bought a Tamron F2.8 17-50mm especially for the event to gain a stop. I spent a further two days selecting the best images and post-processing them and I'm very pleased with some of them - especially the night-time band shots. I sent a link to the band and they were very complementary and in fact have now asked if I would be interested in shooting the cover of their forthcoming album!

The landlord of the pub has now come back to me and asked how I plan to charge for the images because he wants to use some of them on their website. Now clearly I'm realistic enough to know that I am grateful for the exposure and experience but I'm also aware that three days work really demands I should be charging at least £1000 for this to be viable. Many pro's seem to charge £1000 a day for shooting and I presume they absorb the costs of post production into that and supply a disc of images. I don't feel I can sensibly charge this much for what was an informal arrangement and I doubt he would pay it but equally I don't want to devalue my work.

I would really welcome some advice from established pro's on what would be a fair price for this? How much would you charge etc?

Images can be viewed here: http://www.jonathangorsephotography.com/millfest2014

I find myself in the unfortunate position of having had the year from hell with my ankle problem and photography has been a great blessing in keeping me sane and offering me a possible and yet precarious future...

I would welcome any help or advice you can offer.

Jonathan
stub
Posted 08/08/2014 - 17:34 Link
Some nice work there Jonathon. Dare I say how many ended up being deleted. As someone who has done my fair share of band photography here in Manchester. It is very difficult to get paid anything for this type of work. So I wish you well in your endeavours
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Blythman
Posted 08/08/2014 - 21:03 Link
Its unfortunate that an agreement wasn't put in place before the event.

Now you are between a rock and a hard place. You want to be paid your worth, but you also want to maintain a positive relationship with the landlord.

In your position, I think I'd ask him what his budget is, and then negotiate a number of images for that budget
Alan


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Mike-P
Posted 08/08/2014 - 21:20 Link
Landlords venue, landlords yearly music festival, 2000+ people attending and he lets you shoot to gain experience, exposure AND you get to show some of your landscape work on his wall (in his successful pub)... You even get a paid job from it photographing the bands next album cover and get to (hopefully) sell your pictures from the festival to the public.

My thinking would be that you wanted the experience and he gave you that plus more yet you want to charge him for a few pictures to put on his website?

Chalk it up to experience, give him the pictures, count the 3 days processing as what it was ... experience and maybe he will ask you back next year and you can then negotiate a price for future photos.

From the looks of it you have got the start of a decent portfolio there with some great band pics.

That's what I would do anyway.
Edited by Mike-P: 08/08/2014 - 21:21
aliengrove
Posted 09/08/2014 - 03:33 Link
As he's asked you what you will charge, you should quote him a price imo. You can get an idea of pricing using the Getty Calculator but I'd also get an idea of what his budget is. I'm sure you can come to an agreement satisfactory for both of you.
Smeggypants
Posted 09/08/2014 - 06:25 Link
Some really cool pics their Saxon
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gartmore
Posted 09/08/2014 - 08:18 Link
Perhaps the 'keen amateur' didn't charge and the landlord expects the same from you. I dont take on any work without agreeing a price beforehand. With some work, especially weddings, I always demand payment in advance. If there isn't any money before the event there certainly wont be any after it. What will he use the picures for?
Ken
“We must avoid however, snapping away, shooting quickly and without thought, overloading ourselves with unnecessary images that clutter our memory and diminish the clarity of the whole.” - Henri Cartier-Bresson -
saxon
Posted 09/08/2014 - 12:47 Link
Many thanks for all the advice and I have indeed gone back to him to ask his budget, how many images he wants, if he wants any prints done for the bar walls etc. It was a great opportunity and I loved it and am very pleased that he and the and are so pleased.

I really do appreciate the advice. It does I suppose illustrate though how difficult a market music is to make a living in unless you're dealing with large name artists and shooting for newspapers or magazines under contract.

Jonathan
saxon
Posted 09/08/2014 - 18:41 Link
Sorry Smeggy and Gartmore - for some reason when I replied your posts weren't visible. Anyway thanks for the compliments Smeggy - I was quite pleased with the way some of them came out. The most difficult thing was juggling the shutter speed amidst low and constantly varying light and moving subjects. My biggest fear was that the night shot pictures might have looked sharp on the back of the camera and when I plugged them into the computer I might have seen camera shake on them - fortunately that didn't happen but I was glad I did upgrade to a Tamron 70-200mm F2.8 a month ago and the 17-50mm F2.8 the day before the gig especially for the occasion.

I did write a blog about shooting the event which might be of interest: http://www.jonathangorsephotography.com/blog/2014/7/shooting-my-first-music-fest...

Gartmore - I think your advice is very sound indeed to price a job before doing it. That's easier to do when you're established and approached by someone seeking photographs but over the past 5 years I have known the landlord he has always known me as a full time airline pilot and had no clue about my photography so he would never have thought of asking me - I approached him.

If I hadn't developed an ankle problem which might end my flying career that's exactly how things would have stayed and quite honestly I wouldn't have sought to turn photography into a career because it is undoubtedly difficult to establish a new venture in such a highly contested marketplace. Most tellingly I find there seem to be more people offering courses on how to set up as a professional photographer than there are professional photographers!! It means that just maybe some of the existing pro's haven't got enough real work and are doing training and workshops to supplement their income.

I love photography and always have but I'm yet to be convinced that a sizeable proportion of photographers are earning a comfortable salary - lets say £35000 after tax to provide what I would consider to be a half decent lifestyle. I do think there are a few - but they're established players and they might well be earning a lot more than that with a lot of commercial or wedding work. What I'm trying to evaluate at present is how much scope there is for a viable business in this and the truth is I just don't know...

Keep the insights coming and feel free to PM me offline if that's easier.

Thanks again everyone,

Jonathan
cabstar
Posted 09/08/2014 - 20:39 Link
As a festival photographer I can't tell you what to charge as every job is different but earning £35,000 pa from photography is going to be a very very big ask. I can however give you some tips.

1 you have far to many similars which you have spent an age editing by the looks of it so cull cull cull. A pro knows the good shots from the mediocre and picks accordingly.

2 You are cropping free hand a lot by the looks of it. You need to crop to original format otherwise printing or viewing on phones and tablets reduces the impact. Printing becomes very difficult and I sellable.

3 photographing people backs and heads is just a no no and has very little commercial aspect to it.

4 don't photograph people in embarrassing situations the photo of the two ladies about to kiss is an example of this.

5 interacting with the audience will make for better photos and better sales opportunities. I know this wasn't in the brief but business is business and these kind of shots do wonders for your Facebook pages with likes and shares.

6 stage shots be carful with mics in the shots, hands and arms chopped off and try to keep the whole guitar in, lots of yours have the guitar heads chopped off.

7 mixing black and white within colour galleries looks amateurish, create two galleries one in colour and one in black and white.

Hope this helps. I spent the last 7 years photographing festivals and realised there is absolutely none or very little money in it so went to university did a business management degree and now work in comms and marketing. I now shoot festivals I would have to gone to as a punter. I still enjoy it, but it's not a good business venture.
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jeffstclair
Posted 09/08/2014 - 22:21 Link
Yeah all of the above , I 'm not a photographer I just like making photos of the things that I build ,but I know one or two who work in the art, music and theatre world and they would love to make 35,000 profit a year from their work .... (so would I for that matter ) The arts in general is a very cut throat industry and is full of people who will work for next to nothing .. and the clients know this .. A couple of years ago on a festival gig ( I was building a fire sculpture ) met a young newly qualified photography graduate .her work was very good IMHO. But she was working on site for meals and expenses only ..and she was dead chuffed at that ......jeff....
saxon
Posted 10/08/2014 - 13:16 Link
Cabstar,

many thanks for the critique and I have as you know replied privately offline - I'm very grateful to all of you for your insights and I fear Jeffstclair that you are right - the arts attracts too many people wanting to do it. I think other jobs such as accountancy or dentistry are well paid because no bugger really wants to do it and the required training acts as a barrier to entry. The latter is probably the only thing that has stopped pilot salaries going into complete freefall - although most of you would probably be horrified to know the real state of pilot salaries compared to the golden age. I had a conversation with an aircraft refueller at manchester airport only perhaps 3 years ago and we were both shocked to discover he was earning more for driving the refuelling truck than I was earning for flying the plane!!

Ever wondered why certain Irish low cost carriers are able to fly you on a £50m jet to Rome cheaper than you can catch a bus/train to the nearest city? They don't employ pilots they hire contractors who pay for their own uniforms, meals, bottled water, simulator training and hotel bills. They have no sick pay, holiday pay and in Winter when the schedule goes quieter they park the planes and leave the pilots at home earning nothing at all.

We live in interesting times...

Jonathan

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