"What goes round, comes around" - it must be F8


McGregNi

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 00:42
We are diverging now! Stepping up from ISO 100 to 200 is doubling the sensitivity / gain, and I think that is a lot. Yes, the effects will mostly be visable in lower light scenes and at bigger enlargments, but for me it would be a concern.

Smeggypants wrote:
McGregNi wrote:
I still remain unconvinced that Tav mode really is such a 'flexible friend'. It still comes down to our output intentions.

Each to their own of course, but I can't see the problem with it. If ISO gets too high for your liking then adjust either shtutter or aperture to bring it down

Well yes, but surely Smeggy down on that platform you're near your limits in this respect already (ie at or near wide open, and at a speed just fast enough to prevent the woman blurring - unless you were using flash, not allowed either )

Smeggypants wrote:
Well some people just like a cool photo and don't even worry about things like "yellow colour noise in the blacks!" . You obviosuly do and that's fine too so against it's each to their own

I think that yellow colour noise (and other noises) is something to think
about for all serious digital photographers, not something that is just 'each to their own'. It imposes very real technical limitations on us and can obviously affect the choice of modes and camera settings we must consider.

What is a cool or not cool picture is clearly down to personal taste - I can't see the relevance of such an observation to a thread about optimum f stops and shooting modes and how they influence technical quality. My posted shot is nothing more than a tree and some houses (but I love it!), so I wouldn't be interested in others artistic judgements. But as far as its technical attributes or lack of, hey, I positively welcome a right free-for-all.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Last Edited by McGregNi on 14/04/2013 - 00:42

McGregNi

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 00:49
Smeggypants wrote:
McGregNi wrote:
I believe for my output purpose it is important to maintain full control over ISO. Certainly on the K7 the jump from 100 - 200 - 400 would be significant. So Tav wouldn't give that full control.

Yes it would. You have full control over speed/aperture and ISO in TAv mode. if you want to control ISO, either within a range or even to a specific figure you simply adjust either shutter or aperture accordingly

You have control over iso, yes, but only in a 'secondary' capacity, (ie its not the primary input, only the result of the primary inputs) - its not really the mode for setting ISO at all - that would be Sensitivity Priority (is that Sv on the dial??)
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

Smeggypants

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 02:44
McGregNi wrote:
Smeggypants wrote:
Quote:
I believe for my output purpose it is important to maintain full control over ISO. Certainly on the K7 the jump from 100 - 200 - 400 would be significant. So Tav wouldn't give that full control.

Yes it would. You have full control over speed/aperture and ISO in TAv mode. if you want to control ISO, either within a range or even to a specific figure you simply adjust either shutter or aperture accordingly

You have control over iso, yes, but only in a 'secondary' capacity, (ie its not the primary input, only the result of the primary inputs) - its not really the mode for setting ISO at all - that would be Sensitivity Priority (is that Sv on the dial??)

It makes no difference.

You've got 3 variables for a given exposure. If you change the ISO then either the shutter or the aperture must change. In TAv mode is you want to change the ISO for a given exposure then you have a choice whether to change the shutter or aperture to preserve that exposure.
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283

Smeggypants

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 03:04
McGregNi wrote:
We are diverging now! Stepping up from ISO 100 to 200 is doubling the sensitivity / gain, and I think that is a lot. Yes, the effects will mostly be visable in lower light scenes and at bigger enlargments, but for me it would be a concern.

Smeggypants wrote:
Quote:
I still remain unconvinced that Tav mode really is such a 'flexible friend'. It still comes down to our output intentions.

Each to their own of course, but I can't see the problem with it. If ISO gets too high for your liking then adjust either shutter or aperture to bring it down

Well yes, but surely Smeggy down on that platform you're near your limits in this respect already (ie at or near wide open, and at a speed just fast enough to prevent the woman blurring - unless you were using flash, not allowed either )

And how is that specific to TAv mode?


Quote:

Smeggypants wrote:
Well some people just like a cool photo and don't even worry about things like "yellow colour noise in the blacks!" . You obviosuly do and that's fine too so against it's each to their own

I think that yellow colour noise (and other noises) is something to think
about for all serious digital photographers,

Are you seriously suggesting how much someone worries about noise is proportional to how serious a photographer they are?


Quote:
... not something that is just 'each to their own'. It imposes very real technical limitations on us and can obviously affect the choice of modes and camera settings we must consider.

You're starting to claim to speak for others. The level of technical limitations is something that's each to their own and something people impose upon themselves. i.e you've rejected my underground photo for printing because of some technical issue, which others might not even worry about.
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283

davidstorm

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 11:12
I love the way these threads shoot off in all directions! I'm sure Peter's original post was not intended to give us all technical tuition in how to avoid yellow colour noise in black areas, but it's interesting all the same.

I think what this thread demonstrates most clearly is that we all have our own way of doing things and even when we use the same equipment the results are very different.

Regards
David
My Website http://imagesbydavidstorm.foliopic.com

Flickr

Some cameras, some lenses, some bits 'n' bobs

CMW

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 11:51
By focusing so exclusively on selected technical desiderata, there's risk of overlooking or downgrading potentially more important inputs -- composition, DoF, perspective etc -- and ending up with a good record of a scene (with low noise etc) that is none the less aesthetically underwhelming. This thread may even demonstrate that for some readers.
Regards, Christopher

ChristopherWheelerPhotography

johnha

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 12:11
CMW wrote:
By focusing so exclusively on selected technical desiderata, there's risk of overlooking or downgrading potentially more important inputs -- composition, DoF, perspective etc -- and ending up with a good record of a scene (with low noise etc) that is none the less aesthetically underwhelming. This thread may even demonstrate that for some readers.

Completely agree, there are so many variables that need to be considered before determining if the results are as desired by the photographer. Sometimes the gear you have, the environment and circumstances you're in mean you can't get the shot you want at the quality you're aiming for. You have to decide whether to shoot it anyway or not bother (less so now you can delete it later).

I've missed so many 'one off' grab shots and messed up a load more, that I'm insulated against it now. Sometimes you're just not going to get the shot, but without the dynamism of the moment, sometimes it wouldn't be interesting enough either.

John.
PPG Flickr

PeterKR

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 15:54
davidstorm wrote:
I love the way these threads shoot off in all directions! I'm sure Peter's original post was not intended to give us all technical tuition in how to avoid yellow colour noise in black areas, but it's interesting all the same.

I think what this thread demonstrates most clearly is that we all have our own way of doing things and even when we use the same equipment the results are very different.

Regards
David

OK. I admit it ! This was one of the reasons I posted this thread !

It may sound a bit capricious but I also love the wide variety of comments that these Forum postings generate - as has been said - Photography should be FUN !

Having said that, there WAS a more serious side also since I do also appreciate seeing comments that help me to develop my skills and without this useful interchange of ideas which appear here we would take even longer to appreciate the many and complex ways of approaching different subjects.

So finally, after all the discussion above, today I put the K-r back onto 'P' !!!

Many thanks again to everyone
Peter

Smeggypants

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 17:21
johnha wrote:
CMW wrote:
By focusing so exclusively on selected technical desiderata, there's risk of overlooking or downgrading potentially more important inputs -- composition, DoF, perspective etc -- and ending up with a good record of a scene (with low noise etc) that is none the less aesthetically underwhelming. This thread may even demonstrate that for some readers.

Completely agree, there are so many variables that need to be considered before determining if the results are as desired by the photographer. Sometimes the gear you have, the environment and circumstances you're in mean you can't get the shot you want at the quality you're aiming for. You have to decide whether to shoot it anyway or not bother (less so now you can delete it later).

I've missed so many 'one off' grab shots and messed up a load more, that I'm insulated against it now. Sometimes you're just not going to get the shot, but without the dynamism of the moment, sometimes it wouldn't be interesting enough either.

John.

On the fleeting moment issue, I've just conditioned myself to just shoot and ask question later. And if there's no time to even compose the shot, never mind look at the settings, I'll just 'point and shoot' without even looking through the viewfinder.

It's in the lap of the gods whether you've got something usable in these situations, but one thing is for sure if you didn't hold the camera up and press the shutter button the chances of getting something usable is 0%.

Of course some moments are slightly less fleeting and in which case I'll compose and set DOF and shutter speed to taste as time allows. teh very very last thing I'll ever worry about is maximising IQ on a resolution MTF basis or for lowest noise.

On the subject of noise, I'm not going to annoy everyone by posting my Rasta Alien shot again - hehe - but it does serve to show that on the latest Pentax Cams you can shoot at ISO12800, add a bit of Lightroom NR and get more than acceptable output. ( iI'm sure there's at least 2 or 3 pixels of yellow c9olour noise in there though )

ISO80 to ISO12800 is 7.3 stops ( I think ) and unless your moving from indoors to bright sunlight without changing shutter or aperture, you're never going to need that much scope. Most cases TAv mode will cause ISO to move 2 or 3 stops at the most.
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283

McGregNi

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 17:40
It is certainly stimulating - I mean, a thread that started off with the OP saying he wants to set f.8 in aperture priority mode , with the aim of getting the best IQ out of his lenses, has ended up with aesthetic comparisons between the shots posted!

As usual, my own interest in this is to provoke responses that are Pentax specific, for the benefit of all levels of photographer who might be looking. So, thinking about Tav mode, and the Program Line settings are useful I think. On our Pentax DSLRs we are spoiled for choice in which automatic exposure mode to use - yes, they can all end up giving us the same result, but some are plainly more intuitive to use or more suited to certain situations than others.

My own personal feeling is that having a firm grip on ISO, and consequently noise and other IQ aspects, is a priority. But I fully accept the points made that when there is no other way of getting a useable image, and the shot is not going to subject to critical gaze at an enlarged size, then let rip and take what ISO is thrown at you.

Interestingly, Smeggy, I recall you have often placed at the top of your Pentax 'wish list' a desire for better low light / high ISO performance - that has been your priority - yet here you appear not to be at all concerned about colour noise

Actually, I am thinking there needs to be much stricter controls on it - in fact, along with tripods and flash it should be banned from the underground on the basis of misrepresenting true black, and any Pentax user should be prohibited from using Tav mode on any platform.

Smeggypants wrote:

On the subject of noise, I'm not going to annoy everyone by posting my Rasta Alien shot again - hehe -

Oh come on, please yes, we love it!!
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

McGregNi

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 17:44
Not sure if I'd enlarge it to fill my wall though - but I'd like to see if I can spot any noise on it - anything, anywhere!! It'll keep me awake if I can't.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

gartmore

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 18:21
Smeggypants wrote:
johnha wrote:
Quote:
By focusing so exclusively on selected technical desiderata, there's risk of overlooking or downgrading potentially more important inputs -- composition, DoF, perspective etc -- and ending up with a good record of a scene (with low noise etc) that is none the less aesthetically underwhelming. This thread may even demonstrate that for some readers.

Completely agree, there are so many variables that need to be considered before determining if the results are as desired by the photographer. Sometimes the gear you have, the environment and circumstances you're in mean you can't get the shot you want at the quality you're aiming for. You have to decide whether to shoot it anyway or not bother (less so now you can delete it later).

I've missed so many 'one off' grab shots and messed up a load more, that I'm insulated against it now. Sometimes you're just not going to get the shot, but without the dynamism of the moment, sometimes it wouldn't be interesting enough either.

John.

On the fleeting moment issue, I've just conditioned myself to just shoot and ask question later. And if there's no time to even compose the shot, never mind look at the settings, I'll just 'point and shoot' without even looking through the viewfinder.

It's in the lap of the gods whether you've got something usable in these situations, but one thing is for sure if you didn't hold the camera up and press the shutter button the chances of getting something usable is 0%.

Of course some moments are slightly less fleeting and in which case I'll compose and set DOF and shutter speed to taste as time allows. teh very very last thing I'll ever worry about is maximising IQ on a resolution MTF basis or for lowest noise.

On the subject of noise, I'm not going to annoy everyone by posting my Rasta Alien shot again - hehe - but it does serve to show that on the latest Pentax Cams you can shoot at ISO12800, add a bit of Lightroom NR and get more than acceptable output. ( iI'm sure there's at least 2 or 3 pixels of yellow c9olour noise in there though )

ISO80 to ISO12800 is 7.3 stops ( I think ) and unless your moving from indoors to bright sunlight without changing shutter or aperture, you're never going to need that much scope. Most cases TAv mode will cause ISO to move 2 or 3 stops at the most.

I wouldn't mind at all seeing your Rasta Alien shot again, I think its somehting of an objerct lesson on the capabilities of current Pentax cameras. It can also be a reminder that that photography is primarily about images and not about ISO/noise/settings and so on. When I look at photographs I really couldn't care less what the camera make or settings were.

If the photographer sensibly uses a shallow depth of field or, indeed a deep one, then it enhances the image. In truly great images none of the techy stuff need matter.
Ken
“We must avoid however, snapping away, shooting quickly and without thought, overloading ourselves with unnecessary images that clutter our memory and diminish the clarity of the whole.” - Henri Cartier-Bresson -

Smeggypants

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 18:24
McGregNi wrote:


Interestingly, Smeggy, I recall you have often placed at the top of your Pentax 'wish list' a desire for better low light / high ISO performance - that has been your priority - yet here you appear not to be at all concerned about colour noise

That's right, there's no contradiction. I've always said I would love better and better ISO performance as I'd love to take less noisy pics in low light and I've never said I'm unconcerned about noise at all

I've also said that I still always place artistic issues above technical issues when shooting

I refer you to what I said on page 1 of this thread.

Smeggypants wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I do like sharp noise free images, but for me they are a bonus.

You attempt at claiming there's some kind of hypocrisy on my part failed
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283

McGregNi

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 19:11
Well, it was worth a shot...
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

McGregNi

Link Posted 14/04/2013 - 19:49
gartmore wrote:
I wouldn't mind at all seeing your Rasta Alien shot again, I think its somehting of an objerct lesson on the capabilities of current Pentax cameras. It can also be a reminder that that photography is primarily about images and not about ISO/noise/settings and so on. When I look at photographs I really couldn't care less what the camera make or settings were.

If the photographer sensibly uses a shallow depth of field or, indeed a deep one, then it enhances the image. In truly great images none of the techy stuff need matter.

All true, yes, but this is a forum about Pentax equipment, and the thread is about specific ideas on settings on a Pentax camera. I said earlier, and I hope that others can at least agree with this, that Pentax equipment provides us users with a very special range and choice of operating modes.

The good choice of which one would be optimal in differing situations is something that should be shouted out loud, not least to inform those (like me) relatively new to the brand; to inspire those who have used the cameras for much longer to try out different things, and of course to hopefully persuade new buyers that Pentax offers more than the rest!

I hope that the discussions about MTF, Program Line, Tav, Sv, colour noise etc will go some way to meeting such objectives. I don't think that everything should just be dismissed as of no importance so long as the image is 'great'.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
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