"What goes round, comes around" - it must be F8


MrB

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 12:12
Mannesty wrote:
"I have never understood why people buy expensive and very capable cameras, and leave them in what I used to call AFE mode, Auto F'ing Everything."

PeterKR wrote:
"If you leave the camera on 'P' all the time you never learn anything and therefore never make improvements?"

Just to clarify - P-Mode is totally different from Green Mode:-

as petrochemist wrote:
"Exactly how I prefer to work. In P mode it just takes a quick flick of one of the wheels to control Aperture/exposure."

True, and more - P-Mode on the K-5 gives the informed photographer control of the camera. When the the K-5 is set to P-Mode, not only does switching on allow the user to grab a usable shot that might otherwise be missed, but it also allows him, when time permits, to make use of his understanding of the principles of photography, by giving him the creative freedom to change any of the exposure parameters - ISO, Aperture, and Shutter Speed - without needing to change the Mode Dial, together with permitting exposure compensation if desired.

Philip

Algernon

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 13:40
MrB wrote:

True, and more - P-Mode on the K-5 gives the informed photographer control of the camera............

Philip

Informed Photographer Don't go informing Pentax Users..... about how to actually use their cameras They'll be saying things like "Why didn't you tell me in 1991 that there was this very useful Hyper Mode on the front and back dial of a Pentax Z1....... Seems to be the best thing since sliced bread..... I would never have stuck with a Spotmatic/ME all these years if I'd known"

'
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber

Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff

Algi
Last Edited by Algernon on 13/04/2013 - 13:41

johnha

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 13:40
I haven't called it P-mode since buying my Z-1 (*), which along with the K-5 have been set to either 'M' (as in Hyper-Manual aka one-shot-program mode) or 'P' (as in Hyper-Program). Both of these are basically the same as hitting the green button in 'M' gives you the other and then spinning the dials gives you Av or Tv. Choosing the program line is a minor consideration as it's so easy to override it anyway.

More difficult is the metering pattern setting, preferring spot for 'M' and multi-pattern for 'P', but when you really want a grab shot, using spot means you may need to press AE lock too and re-compose.

* I'm still amazed the Z-1 did all this 20yrs ago, in that once in Hyper-Manual one button press (IF) set the program line, then hit AE lock and it holds that setting, then spin either dial to turn it into one-shot Av or Tv - changing one setting to balance the other. It's an incredible user interface whilst giving you complete control if you want.
PPG Flickr

MrB

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 15:17
johnha wrote:
I haven't called it P-mode since buying my Z-1 (*), which along with the K-5 have been set to either 'M' (as in Hyper-Manual aka one-shot-program mode) or 'P' (as in Hyper-Program). Both of these are basically the same as hitting the green button in 'M' gives you the other and then spinning the dials gives you Av or Tv. Choosing the program line is a minor consideration as it's so easy to override it anyway.

More difficult is the metering pattern setting, preferring spot for 'M' and multi-pattern for 'P', but when you really want a grab shot, using spot means you may need to press AE lock too and re-compose.

* I'm still amazed the Z-1 did all this 20yrs ago, in that once in Hyper-Manual one button press (IF) set the program line, then hit AE lock and it holds that setting, then spin either dial to turn it into one-shot Av or Tv - changing one setting to balance the other. It's an incredible user interface whilst giving you complete control if you want.

Good points, John.

Mannesty wrote:
"I would find it very difficult to believe that anybody who has taken the trouble to learn, and understand, even the basics of photography, would use AFE mode on a camera that is capable of so much more."

Making thoughtful use of the "Hyper" features of P-Mode (and also of M-Mode) is a clear example of the photographer using BOTH his own understanding AND the capabilities of the camera.

Philip

McGregNi

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 21:53
I still remain unconvinced that Tav mode really is such a 'flexible friend'. It still comes down to our output intentions.

I mean, Smeggy, yes the young woman on the underground platform is certainly a subject pleasing to the eye, but I couldn't use this photo for wall display as I do for many of my shots due to the great whopping amounts of yellow colour noise in the blacks!

Attempts to reduce this and print out at any decent size would just reveal smudgyness that would be a distraction. I would suggest that the settings here have resulted in an ISO far too high for such a purpose (I know it wasn't your purpose, but just the make the point that we should choose our modes and shooting settings depending on our individual requirements.)

Regarding the auto mode - I think a good point was made earlier about the great flexibility provided on Pentax DSLRs with the 'Program Line' options - you have Speed (High / Low), DOF, or MTF. This provides some degree of customisation within the P mode, taking us worlds away from just 'point & shot'.

But I fear that the effects of these program line settings will be minimal on all but the more expensive wider glass - as Gartmore staid earlier, often the MTF aperture setting is only 1 - 2 stops down from wide open. So on a standard 18-55 zoom, thats the difference between f3.5 and f5.6 or so. At much of the zoom range you won't see a lot of difference I fear.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

Blythman

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 22:01
Nigel, what settings would you have used on the shot Smeggy took, so that you could blow it up to hang on a wall?
Alan


PPG
Flickr

McGregNi

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 22:04
Just as an example of the sort of shot I am saying would require a fair stopping down as well as low ISO - here the subject has equal importance at its edges as in the centre, so I have needed to control noise, vignetting and detail equally right to the edges.





My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

McGregNi

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 22:11
Blythman wrote:
Nigel, what settings would you have used on the shot Smeggy took, so that you could blow it up to hang on a wall?

I think I'd be well into tripod terrain for that Alan. But if Smeggy tried that he'd have to be even quicker than usual before being told to 'put it away' over the PA!
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver

Blythman

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 22:14
You used Smeggy's photo as an example of why Tav isn't a "flexible friend" so was wondering what settings you would have used to get something better.

As to your picture, if handheld, then with Tav you could have selected a shutter speed to avoid shake. Set an aperture to keep it sharp from front to back. And looking at the light, it wouldn't have really mattered if the floating ISO was at 80, 200 or anything inbetween. So Tav would have worked just fine
Alan


PPG
Flickr

McGregNi

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 22:32
I believe for my output purpose it is important to maintain full control over ISO. Certainly on the K7 the jump from 100 - 200 - 400 would be significant. So Tav wouldn't give that full control. Just like a film photographer wouldn't bung in any old 100 or 200 film when taking a considered shot for very large printed output.

I'm not actually trying to say that Tav is inflexible for Smeggy's shot - if the main factors to be controlled are limited to shutter speed and aperture only, then fine - take what the camera gives you. But you have to take any compromises that come with that (such as the colour noise I pointed out). This may be OK for the web or at small sizes.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Last Edited by McGregNi on 13/04/2013 - 22:33

Smeggypants

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 22:34
McGregNi wrote:
I still remain unconvinced that Tav mode really is such a 'flexible friend'. It still comes down to our output intentions.

Each to their own of course, but I can't see the problem with it. If ISO gets too high for your liking then adjust either shtutter or aperture to bring it down



Quote:

I mean, Smeggy, yes the young woman on the underground platform is certainly a subject pleasing to the eye, but I couldn't use this photo for wall display as I do for many of my shots due to the great whopping amounts of yellow colour noise in the blacks!

Attempts to reduce this and print out at any decent size would just reveal smudgyness that would be a distraction. I would suggest that the settings here have resulted in an ISO far too high for such a purpose (I know it wasn't your purpose, but just the make the point that we should choose our modes and shooting settings depending on our individual requirements.)

Well some people just like a cool photo and don't even worry about things like "yellow colour noise in the blacks!" . You obviosuly do and that's fine too so against it's each to their own


McGregNi wrote:
Blythman wrote:
Nigel, what settings would you have used on the shot Smeggy took, so that you could blow it up to hang on a wall?

I think I'd be well into tripod terrain for that Alan.

No you wouldn't, because even if tripods were allowed on the underground ( which they are not of course ) using one would render it impossible to get that shot.

Which brings me back to my original points about how imposing technical boundaries on shooting can prevent bagging some really cool shots.
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283

Smeggypants

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 22:39
McGregNi wrote:
I believe for my output purpose it is important to maintain full control over ISO. Certainly on the K7 the jump from 100 - 200 - 400 would be significant. So Tav wouldn't give that full control.

Yes it would. You have full control over speed/aperture and ISO in TAv mode. if you want to control ISO, either within a range or even to a specific figure you simply adjust either shutter or aperture accordingly
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283

Blythman

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 22:47
McGregNi wrote:
I believe for my output purpose it is important to maintain full control over ISO. Certainly on the K7 the jump from 100 - 200 - 400 would be significant. So Tav wouldn't give that full control. Just like a film photographer wouldn't bung in any old 100 or 200 film when taking a considered shot for very large printed output......

I never mentioned ISO 400 Nigel. I mentioned between 80 and 200. Of course a film photographer wouldn't bung in any old 100 or 200 ISO film. It needs consideration, just like considering which sensor a digital camera has. However, having said the film photographer may well prefer ISO 400 film, all depending on the subject
Alan


PPG
Flickr

Blythman

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 22:52
......Anyway

The camera is just a tool, to capture images. Whichever mode is used it doesn't matter as long as the photographer gets the intended result.

The ability to compose an image is a different matter altogether. You can use whatever mode you choose, if you can't compose an image, the mode won't help
Alan


PPG
Flickr

Smeggypants

Link Posted 13/04/2013 - 23:08
Blythman wrote:
......Anyway

The camera is just a tool, to capture images. Whichever mode is used it doesn't matter as long as the photographer gets the intended result.

The ability to compose an image is a different matter altogether. You can use whatever mode you choose, if you can't compose an image, the mode won't help

Well said
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
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