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shake control on the k10

Posted 23/09/2008 - 13:00 Link
Hi everyone i was out taking pictures on sunday at the solway coast i had my camera on my tripod about 25 pictures in i noticed i had the shake reduction switched on.I heard a couple times that you are not supposed to have it switched on while its on a tripod my camera seems to be working fine since.I just wondered what the damage would be if any any replies would be much appreciated.
iceblinker
Posted 23/09/2008 - 13:04 Link
It won't cause any damage, but ironically might possibly make your pictures less sharp when using a tripod.

This is for weird and complicated reasons that I don't understand, frankly.
~Pete
Mannesty
Posted 24/09/2008 - 21:26 Link
Don't worry. Your camera will not have suffered, your images might show some unexpected blur.
Peter E Smith - flickr Photostream
beginner
Posted 24/09/2008 - 22:25 Link
It's probably because on a tripod the camera is held rigid ,so it will be working against itself!.........where as hand held, the hands will absorb the vibration!.............Logical thinking !...I think!..lol
K20D...ist DS ,DA18/55,DA16/45.DA* 50/135,"A"1.7 50MM..."A" 70/210..M 50mm f2...Tamron 90mm macro,28/300 Tamron,200/500 Tamron 6.9....A Pentax DA*300... Sigma10/20,FA31mm 1.8 Ltd*********,FA 77mm Ltd!
ChrisA
Posted 24/09/2008 - 23:48 Link
iceblinker wrote:
It won't cause any damage, but ironically might possibly make your pictures less sharp when using a tripod.

This is for weird and complicated reasons that I don't understand, frankly.

Personally, I think the assertion that SR on a tripod causes shake is urban myth, nothing more.

One or two claim to have seen it, several more have heard others claim it, and lo, it becomes accepted wisdom, all without a shred of actual evidence.

I've done some quite careful tests looking for SR-induced blur on a tripod and found nothing.

I think it's a load of old shoemakers.
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Pentax K-3, DA18-135, DA35 F2.4, DA17-70, DA55-300, FA28-200, A50 F1.7, A100 F4 Macro, A400 F5.6, Sigma 10-20 EXDC, 50-500 F4.5-6.3 APO DG OS Samsung flash SEF-54PZF(x2)
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Edited by ChrisA: 24/09/2008 - 23:48
johnriley
Posted 24/09/2008 - 23:54 Link
Well you might be right, but what reason would there then be for including it in the instructions? There's nothing obvious to be gained from that.

Perhaps it is a problem just under certain circumstances (unspecified) and it's just simpler to say make sure it's switched off.
Best regards, John
ChrisA
Posted 25/09/2008 - 00:03 Link
johnriley wrote:
Well you might be right, but what reason would there then be for including it in the instructions? There's nothing obvious to be gained from that.

This has puzzled me too. Note, though, that it doesn't say anything about leaving it on causing blur - it just says switch it off.

Quote:
Perhaps it is a problem just under certain circumstances (unspecified) and it's just simpler to say make sure it's switched off.

I think this is closer to it. If you look at my earlier thread, I did report a scary camera lock up that happened twice under identical conditions - and switching off didn't cure it, it required a battery removal and replacement.

So there's something a bit fishy afoot, I think.

The other thing is, as I explained in some detail before, if you really want to eliminate shake, you absolutely mustn't be releasing the shutter (undelayed) with your finger, tripod or no tripod. Since the finger causes shake that the SR does not eliminate on the tripod.

And of course, in all circumstances (remote, delay etc) except direct finger-induced release, the camera switches SR off regardless of the SR switch position.
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Pentax K-3, DA18-135, DA35 F2.4, DA17-70, DA55-300, FA28-200, A50 F1.7, A100 F4 Macro, A400 F5.6, Sigma 10-20 EXDC, 50-500 F4.5-6.3 APO DG OS Samsung flash SEF-54PZF(x2)
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missmarple
Posted 25/09/2008 - 07:09 Link
Is it not just a case of reducing battery usage?
MattMatic
Posted 25/09/2008 - 08:53 Link
It's also down to rounding errors over long exposure times. There will come a point where the response to the small amount of vibration on a tripod will cause the sensor to move too far - because the feedback mechanism will have quantum steps.

Eventually the camera will "see" a movement and try to correct it - so you'll end up with the possibility of a slightly softer image.

But then as Chris says, you should be using a remote release or timed release anyway - both of which turn off SR automatically.

Matt
http://www.mattmatic.co.uk
(For gallery, tips and links)
ChrisA
Posted 25/09/2008 - 10:17 Link
MattMatic wrote:
It's also down to rounding errors over long exposure times. There will come a point where the response to the small amount of vibration on a tripod will cause the sensor to move too far - because the feedback mechanism will have quantum steps.

Eventually the camera will "see" a movement and try to correct it - so you'll end up with the possibility of a slightly softer image.

I can see your arms waving as you say this, Matt.

Is this based on any actual information, or are you speculating a bit? Rounding errors don't always make a significant difference, nor do they always make the result larger.

Has the effect you describe actually been observed in any real situation?

Specifically, where the amount of shake induced by the manual release required to achieve it has been shown to be smaller than any additional shake alleged to be caused by the SR?
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Pentax K-3, DA18-135, DA35 F2.4, DA17-70, DA55-300, FA28-200, A50 F1.7, A100 F4 Macro, A400 F5.6, Sigma 10-20 EXDC, 50-500 F4.5-6.3 APO DG OS Samsung flash SEF-54PZF(x2)
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MattMatic
Posted 25/09/2008 - 11:02 Link
Chris,
Speculation... and experience with digital feedback designs.

There's always "jitter" involved in any digital feedback, and in the case of long exposures (typical of tripod usage), this is probably where it'll show itself.
You have the resolution of the vibration sensor(s), plus any rounding errors of the digital feedback algorithm, plus the stepping resolution of the magnetic actuators that move the CCD.

However, when it comes to scientific testing - who knows?! As you've observed, Pentax don't explain the reason in the manual. I've had a few odd situations - but haven't had the time to pin it down to SR or no SR.

Going back to the OP: there's definitely no physical harm done

(I'll stop waving my arms about now )
Matt

EDIT: Here's a real-world test:
Place camera on table (ie something really solid)
Set SR off, set Tv and 5" exposure. Listen - silence.
Set SR on, set Tv and 5" exposure. Listen - the SR mechanism is jittering all over the place and making that sound.
(Not just speculation )
http://www.mattmatic.co.uk
(For gallery, tips and links)
Edited by MattMatic: 25/09/2008 - 11:10
royd63uk
Posted 25/09/2008 - 17:20 Link
O.k what if it's on a tripod and there is a breeze/wind blowing there will be some minor movement then..so is it best left on?

Roy
regards
Roy

Pentax K3 gripped,and some lenses
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pentaxroy/

my pbase gallery
Don
Posted 25/09/2008 - 17:44 Link
chris, didn't you over the course of your extensive testing , uncover a glitch/malfunction, that caused a little heart stop moment, but no actual harm to the camera?

royd63uk....
that last question.....
get a better tripod.
seriously.
the right tripod for the conditions is one that holds the camera steady.

ps here's what I've concluded...

when the light is low, and you have no tripod, try turning sr on and see if it helps.
if you cannot see a NOTICABLE improvement, turn it back off and leave it off untill you think you need it.

I'll spare chris from having an anurism bursting in his brain, by not rehashing what caused me to draw those conclusions, but will say his testing and results convinced me that the sr is of little use except for telephoto shots, handheld.
Fired many shots. Didn't kill anything.
Edited by Don: 25/09/2008 - 17:54
ChrisA
Posted 25/09/2008 - 19:10 Link
Don wrote:
chris, didn't you over the course of your extensive testing , uncover a glitch/malfunction, that caused a little heart stop moment, but no actual harm to the camera?

I did indeed. Scroll up to my earlier post on this thread - I included a link to the thread where I described my tests. The glitch is described in that original post.

I've had exactly the same symptom once since - photographing fast jets at an airshow, and that was all hand-held. Although SR was on at the time, it would be very premature to assume any connection.

Quote:
I'll spare chris from having an anurism bursting in his brain

That's ok, Don - whenever you wibble on about SR causing blur in hand-held shots, I assume you've had another one...

But I am curious how you conclude that my
Quote:
testing and results convinced you (ed) that the sr is of little use except for telephoto shots, handheld.

None of that series of experiments was done hand-held, it was all on a tripod. So it would be quite wrong to conclude anything about SR's usefulness for hand-held shots at all.

In my experience, SR hand-held is fab, and enables me to do things I'd never have been able to attempt.

This, for instance, was hand-held.

18mm, 0.3 seconds. That's at least three stops better than the rule-of-thumb. I used to be able to get 1-2 stops better than the RoT in my film days, with a lot of elbows-into-the-side, breathing out, kind of thing, but not 3.

I guess it might have been sharper still with SR off...
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Pentax K-3, DA18-135, DA35 F2.4, DA17-70, DA55-300, FA28-200, A50 F1.7, A100 F4 Macro, A400 F5.6, Sigma 10-20 EXDC, 50-500 F4.5-6.3 APO DG OS Samsung flash SEF-54PZF(x2)
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Edited by ChrisA: 25/09/2008 - 19:12
ChrisA
Posted 25/09/2008 - 19:14 Link
royd63uk wrote:
O.k what if it's on a tripod and there is a breeze/wind blowing there will be some minor movement then..so is it best left on?

Spend 20 on the wireless remote, and use it to release the shutter when the camera is on the tripod.

Then, SR will be off, regardless of the SR switch position, because the camera switches it off in those (and all other remote/delayed situations), as the manual describes.
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Pentax K-3, DA18-135, DA35 F2.4, DA17-70, DA55-300, FA28-200, A50 F1.7, A100 F4 Macro, A400 F5.6, Sigma 10-20 EXDC, 50-500 F4.5-6.3 APO DG OS Samsung flash SEF-54PZF(x2)
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