[poll] Did/Do you notice leaning images with your K10D?

since the discussion has been started if the K10 suffers from leaning images.

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Camera:K20D|Ist*DS|Spotmatic II|MZ-10
Pentax Lenses: DA16-45|DA50-200|50A 1.7
Tamron Lenses: 28-200
Takumar Lenses: SMC 55 1.8
Sigma Lenses: EX DG 50-500 'Bigma'|EX 50mm Macro
Flashes: Metz 58 AF-1|Samsung SEF-36PZF|Pentax AF-220T

...and the rotation tool in Silkypix sorts out the few I do notice (which I subsribe to user error)

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Tim the Ammonyte
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K10D & sundry toys
http://www.ammonyte.com/photos.html

Well... the answer is yes, but it was yes when I use the *ist-D and yes when I used the *ist-DS
It's either my specs or I have a wonky head
(So I'm not voting as it skews the results to the wrong conclusion )
Matt

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http://www.mattmatic.co.uk
(For gallery, tips and links)

Hi Golfdiesel

Mine did once when I visited the Cathedral at Pisa.....LOL !

Best regards
Richard

I'm exactly the same - I'm capable of getting wonky horizons with any camera so it would be unfair to blame it on the K10D (which seems no worse than any other camera I've owned in that respect).

Since the other thread on this subject seems to have degenerated into noise, I'll post here...

If I look at my real world photos where there is some sort of vertical/horizontal reference to check against, they all lean a bit some down to the left, more down to the right. The amount isn't much (<1 degree either way).

I took some test photo's -

Aligning on the viewfinder markings gives photos that are down on the right.
Aligning instead on the top/bottom of the viewfinder itself seems to give level images.

This would make me think that the focussing screen (which has the viewfinder markings on, doesn't it?) is mis-aligned very slightly.

Having done all this, I'm now going to leave the focussing screen well alone and rotate any images which are clearly not level when viewed with the mk1 eyeball.

Robin

Indeed, I have the same experience. My K10 is my fourth reflex camera, and it is the first time that regularly I notice the problem.

My Test: I checked my K10D out today using the bottom edge of an aluminium window frame as my horizontal reference. I aligned the lower (and widest) horizontal framing guides with said window frame and took a shot, hand held but very carefully.

My Result: The horizontal level of my recorded image is the same as that seen through the viewfinder. No problem here.

My Theory: Both the shake reduction (SR) and dust removal (DR) technologies employed within this camera must mean that the sensor is mounted on a moving/moveable surface. If the SR system has only 2 axis of correction and can cater for rotational 'shake', then I'm not surprised that this moving/moveable surface doesn't come to rest in the same place each time, even if SR is turned off. Interference fit of certain parts and manufacturing tolerances of those parts would almost certainly prevent it from doing so.

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Peter E Smith

My flickr Photostream

@mannesty

This is exactly the idea I have. Even a fraction of a millimeter off will result in a slightly skewed image. But the degree would be very small.

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Camera:K20D|Ist*DS|Spotmatic II|MZ-10
Pentax Lenses: DA16-45|DA50-200|50A 1.7
Tamron Lenses: 28-200
Takumar Lenses: SMC 55 1.8
Sigma Lenses: EX DG 50-500 'Bigma'|EX 50mm Macro
Flashes: Metz 58 AF-1|Samsung SEF-36PZF|Pentax AF-220T

Hi Peter,

Pentax have white papers available which outline the SR system operation, they can be found at the links just below. The claim that the Pentax SR system counters for rotational movement (about the axis of the lens) is contended based on the facts that there are two versions of the SR white paper (both housed on Pentax web servers) which differ in their claims and that simple tests appear to reveal that SR seems not to counter rotation.

http://www.pentaxslr.com/pdf/K10_Shake_Reduction.pdf http://www.pentaximaging.com/files/scms_docs//PENTAX_SR_Description_091506.pdf

Also even though the design of the SR mechanism could well be used to produce rotation according to the SR patent information and views inside the bodies that I've seen there are only two sensors and neither of them are sited such that could register movement about the axis of the lens. See the SR patent following:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ux2AAAAAEBAJ&dq=7224893

The voice coil motors used on the sensor plate are of a very similar design to those used to position the heads track to track on a hard drive, they have great holding power and can be positioned with very good precision. The system also uses hall feedback devices which are very precisely located on the moving SR sensor plate so the repeatability of sensor positioning should be very good indeed (which in the vast majority of cases it appears to be).

The motors have two functions, as well as providing the motive force to actively position the sensor assembly they magnetically hold the movable plate in position on a set of three bearings, there is no interference fit required. At rest the moving sensor plate has no home position, it's free to move within its mechanical constraints. You can test this by listening to the camera in a quiet location whilst rotating it about the lens axis. You should hear a light dull thud as the sensor falls due to gravity whether SR or the power is on or off.

Basically the sensor only comes into position whilst the image is being exposed otherwise it's at rest and the DR system is just an extension of the SR system in that the SR mech is rammed into a stop in order to displace any dust. About all that should differ between the K100D and K100D Super I would guess would be the firmware to enable the DR function, some sticky tape under the sensor to trap fallen dust and the addition of a suitable stop onto which the SR assembly is directed.

I hope this sheds some light on the SR system for you.

Cheers,

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Rob Studdert
HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio/publications/
Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998

Thanks for the info. Very interesting.

Maybe then the SR and DR mechanism is not to blame for the inconsistency in image level if their positioning/datum systems are so accurate.

It could be then that the setup of some of these cameras is not accurate. This could only be proven if all of the cameras affected, have the same amount of error in every shot.

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Peter E Smith

My flickr Photostream

I've just experimented hand held using the window frames on my conservatory. And i noticed that if i use the lines on the focusing screen the image leans to the right. If line up with the view finder top or bottom line then the image is a lot better. as rwg said it could be the focusing screen, if so can the focusing screen be realigned by taking it out and refitting.

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Richard

K5 + Penta DA 18-135, Pentax 55-300, Pentax A-50mm F1.7, Sigma 10-20, Tamron 17-50, Tamron SP90 DI Macro
Manfrotto 190XPROB-804RC2 Head,
Samsung Flash Unit.

link Flickr
link PPG

If it is the focusing screen, the fact that everyone seems to get the same direction of lean would tend to indicate a systematic problem rather than a random (just not quite aligned) problem. For instance (and I've no evidence that this is true) - you could imagine that the act of tightening the catch that retains the screen might tend to push it off alignment to one side...

Robin

Hi Robin,

After a lot of frustration with tilt in the images from my K10D I did some fairly extensive testing and found that both the finder view and screen were rotated but to differing degrees. I use both the edges of the finder mask and the focus area indicators as visual guides so it was quite irritating.

The problem is that it's difficult to diagnose where the error lies. Assuming that the sensor is perfectly aligned with the base it has to be down to a finder issue. If the view in the finder appears rotated as a whole the causes could be a drooping mirror or rotated prism however the mirror problem would also lead to focus errors across the screen. If the screen is misaligned then it won't line up with the edges of the finder mask (assuming that the mask is rotated as is the prism) but may still appear straight relative to the base of the camera (if it's rotated counter to a rotated prism). Too hard.

Also from my experience with the screen holder in the LX (which is similar to that in the K10D) it is possible to find a slight alignment error but due to the design of the clip once it's locked in place there appears to be limited remnant lateral force on the screen holder so it's not likely to be rotated due to that IMO.

Cheers,

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Rob Studdert
HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio/publications/
Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998

Has anyone been in contact with Pentax about this issue? I do not have a K10D so I can't really comment on the severity of the problem. I would however like to see some kind of opinion from Pentax on this issue.
What we need is someone who can explain the issue to Pentax in a normal and civilised way. Complaining doesn't really help, if you approach a company in a constructive way it usually helps and they are more willing to sort out the problems.

If someone lives close to a Pentax service center and has the problem it would be a good idea to try to make an appointment with a service technician so you explain and demonstrate the problem.
Explaining this to the shop in which you bought the camera is useless most of the time because most salespeople in the stores don't really know a lot (a few exceptions offcourse!!)

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Camera:K20D|Ist*DS|Spotmatic II|MZ-10
Pentax Lenses: DA16-45|DA50-200|50A 1.7
Tamron Lenses: 28-200
Takumar Lenses: SMC 55 1.8
Sigma Lenses: EX DG 50-500 'Bigma'|EX 50mm Macro
Flashes: Metz 58 AF-1|Samsung SEF-36PZF|Pentax AF-220T