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Dr Orloff Or How I Stopped Worrying And Learned To Love The Converging Vertical

aliengrove
Posted 26/05/2014 - 23:02 Link
McGregNi wrote:
Dodge69 wrote:
I liked how you looked through the viewfinder and then pressed the shutter button.

It a joke, but it won't get you a creative exposure! Far from it.

To the contrary, I don't think it's a joke at all. Apart from Ansell Adams, I don't think very many historically significant photographers gave much thought to the details of exposure beyond an understanding of what their equipment was capable of reproducing.
K10D
Posted 27/05/2014 - 00:01 Link
They all work for me. I can't see anything but well captured images.

Also some interesting comments in the thread.

Best regards
Inspiration is rarer than a plate glass camera.....
Smeggypants
Posted 27/05/2014 - 04:41 Link
davidstorm wrote:
Smeggypants wrote:
I know it's all splitting hairs. Still a great shot. Some would have cropped out the offending structure.

It could have been cloned out too? Not sure if it's than important as the image is good anyway, it's all very subjective.

Thanks from me too Dr O for the detailed explanations.

Regards
David

Yes cloning it out had crossed my mind but I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to cloning. - Of course if someone doe to their pic and doesnt' tell anyone, I'm non the wiser and wont' get upset
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
Smeggypants
Posted 27/05/2014 - 05:15 Link
aliengrove wrote:
McGregNi wrote:
Quote:
I liked how you looked through the viewfinder and then pressed the shutter button.

It a joke, but it won't get you a creative exposure! Far from it.

To the contrary, I don't think it's a joke at all. Apart from Ansell Adams, I don't think very many historically significant photographers gave much thought to the details of exposure beyond an understanding of what their equipment was capable of reproducing.

cardiff_gareth wrote:
Jesus! I don't think you're in the right place yet McGregNi to preach settings to Adrian! I also have my camera set permanently to centre weighted metering. I also have my ISO linked to exposure stops and Steve Everitt has his camera permanently dialled in with -EV

I have my cameras welded to centre weighted exposure too. I don't permanently have a -EV dialled in, but I won't hesitate to dial -0.7 to -1.0 or more if I think there's something that might get blown. I do have the camera's inbuilt flash set to a -1.0EV compensation dialled in though.

I agree with the responses to Nigel above and also think Dodge69's comment "I liked how you looked through the viewfinder and then pressed the shutter button." is not certainly not a joke and further a succinct comment on how to take good pictures.

In fact I'll go a step further and make an admission. Many of the pics I take, I don't even look through the viewfinder. Why? Well a lot my snapping is on impulse. I see something on a spontaneous gut feeling need to photograph it and there isn't time mess about looking through viewfinders, etc so I just point the camera in the direction in question and press the shutter.

It's a dynamic world. Moments are moments, and gut feelings are fleeting. Those who hesitate miss the boat. I missed so many shots in my early days of photography by hesitating. So over the years I've conditioned myself to shoot first and think afterwards, rather than the opposite. Got a lot more keepers that way.


My experience is to practice the technical stuff at home on rubbish. Get au fait with what your camera is capable of and when you're out on a shoot pay attention to what your pointing the camera at rather than what's displayed on the screen or what the knobs and dials are set to.

After all we a lucky that today we have cameras that have a capability that allows a lot of leeway on exposure so that we can snap away and worry about technical stuff once we get back home and upload the pics for editing
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
McGregNi
Posted 27/05/2014 - 16:36 Link
cardiff_gareth wrote:
Jesus! I don't think you're in the right place yet McGregNi to preach settings to Adrian! I also have my camera set permanently to centre weighted metering. I also have my ISO linked to exposure stops and Steve Everitt has his camera permanently dialled in with -EV

This is just an over-reaction, or is it another ugly case of self-appointed forum police deciding who is eligible to make points in relation to others? If anything will stifle this forum it is that sort of thing.

Nothing I have been saying in any way preaches to anyone, least of all Adrian. In fact his shots with their creative, non-conventional exposures, are the springboard for my thoughts on it. We've all got different approaches to things, and it has been wonderful to hear the photographer speak about that here, and he seems very open to ideas and furthering the discussions .... but why such a reluctance from others to discuss ways of assessing a scenes brightness, relationships between tonal areas and quick ways to translate this into camera stops? Its all about sharing isn't it, both inspiration and ideas.

What any of this has got to do with Gareth using centre-weighted, Steve dialing in -EV, or Smeggy's listing of some rather conventional metering and flash compensation settings, I have no idea ! What I'm talking about is quick 'ready-reckoner' approaches to creative exposure options. Its here because of DrO's brilliant examples. Wouldn't anyone want to at least consider ways to achieve similar results? Or am I right in getting the feeling that some don't really want to talk about photography and its technique?
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Edited by McGregNi: 27/05/2014 - 16:37
dougf8
Posted 27/05/2014 - 17:04 Link
McGregNi wrote:
cardiff_gareth wrote:
Jesus! I don't think you're in the right place yet McGregNi to preach settings to Adrian! I also have my camera set permanently to centre weighted metering. I also have my ISO linked to exposure stops and Steve Everitt has his camera permanently dialled in with -EV

This is just an over-reaction, or is it another ugly case of self-appointed forum police deciding who is eligible to make points in relation to others? If anything will stifle this forum it is that sort of thing.

Nothing I have been saying in any way preaches to anyone, least of all Adrian. In fact his shots with their creative, non-conventional exposures, are the springboard for my thoughts on it. We've all got different approaches to things, and it has been wonderful to hear the photographer speak about that here, and he seems very open to ideas and furthering the discussions .... but why such a reluctance from others to discuss ways of assessing a scenes brightness, relationships between tonal areas and quick ways to translate this into camera stops? Its all about sharing isn't it, both inspiration and ideas.

What any of this has got to do with Gareth using centre-weighted, Steve dialing in -EV, or Smeggy's listing of some rather conventional metering and flash compensation settings, I have no idea ! What I'm talking about is quick 'ready-reckoner' approaches to creative exposure options. Its here because of DrO's brilliant examples. Wouldn't anyone want to at least consider ways to achieve similar results? Or am I right in getting the feeling that some don't really want to talk about photography and its technique?

Plenty of space in the forum for any threads you care to start on technique, maybe a better idea than cluttering other threads. If you start the discussion up in a thread then folks might be under the impression you are discussing the original post. Perhaps a new thread for each technique with a link to something that has inspired you. It might help decrease the clutter in a thread which may not have been intended. Perhaps even a single thread about photographic technique which could draw in new ideas and drive all the like minded people to delve in a indulge? Just a thought.
Lurking is shirking.!
McGregNi
Posted 27/05/2014 - 18:25 Link
I would certainly enjoy such dedicated threads on technique, and no doubt would very activity get involved. But are you suggesting even more 'rules' or limitations on what should be 'allowed' in peoples photos threads. The matter of creative exposure is surely the one key distinction on these particular images right here ... how is discussing such techniques , alternatives and sharing info causing 'clutter'?

Most of us would be delighted that our images had provoked extended discussions, debate and general all-round interest. If there's something to be learned and gained by all then thats even better. Or have I completely misunderstood the point of all the recent bemoaning of lack of replies, poor interest and apathy to members photo topics?

DrO, if you're not interested in further exposure / metering discussion then I won't continue out of personal respect ... I would say though that I am rarely extended any such courtesy myself, and have to take what comes.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Edited by McGregNi: 27/05/2014 - 18:27
dougf8
Posted 27/05/2014 - 18:27 Link
Personally, I find you over-verbose, off topic, ambitious and mostly over my head. I'm sure your supporters will leap to your defence.
Lurking is shirking.!
McGregNi
Posted 27/05/2014 - 18:29 Link
I won't bank on it The clique's out to supper.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Edited by McGregNi: 27/05/2014 - 18:30
DrOrloff
Posted 27/05/2014 - 18:29 Link
Please continue Nigel, I value your contributions. Doesn't mean I understand them but I am trying. Whilst I might not think it an approach suitable to a scene with quickly changing light, such as these where the Sun was whizzing in and out of varying densities clouds there may be an approach to follow in a scene with more consistent light.
McGregNi
Posted 27/05/2014 - 18:51 Link
Thanks Adrian, I didn't mean to go off-topic, or detract from your images ... quite the opposite, I see exposure technique and its practical application as fairly central to the topic, the critical element of you photos here. In fact I see it as very much on-topic - it may be that some things were misunderstood.

Basically, I see the process in two parts - using the meter to establish the mid tone, and then relating camera stops to a percentage scale across the dynamic range. The idea of dividing the DR into zones is not new, Jon already mentioned Ansel Adams, but thats really for mono I think.

The most logical scale to use is a percentage one, divided into 10 steps - this covers a stop or so on most cameras. Some will have room to spare either end, which will be a bonus for the editing stage.

So, say it is practical to meter a midtone (like your grey concrete towers on the crane shot) - a true midtone is 50% on this scale (I know we think of 18% grey, but that is a light reflectance value, different to a metered midtone which is a brightness value that that we mentally place in the middle of the camera range).

So we place this midtone at 50% - whaever reading the camera gives us translates to 50% .... now we just consider how brighter or darker from a mid tone do we want this particular area (the concrete towers) to be for our creative purpose. In your photo here it is darker than a midtone, maybe 20% below. Now, if you already know that your camera DR covers 10 stops (with a bit extra at either end), then this translates to a 2 stop (1 stop is 10% on the scale) reduction in exposure - so -2 compensation, or 2 stops faster shutter speed.

It works for different metering if needed as well - say you didn't have a midtone, or (like some of your shots here a midtone reading would give you an exposure that started out way too bright for your intentions), then you have the option of metering a highlight. If you do this (say a spot reading on the bright clouds) you are making this highlight into a midtone - the initial exposure you get will be darker than if you metered a grey object.

So now you're asking where do you want the highlight to be in relation to a midtone - in this case you wanted it to be a bit brighter - not the highest brightness, but maybe 20% above a midtone. So in this case you'd be setting +2 stops compensation, or 2 stops slower speed. It all depends on your best metering options, remembering that whatever you meter will become your midtone, your '50%'.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Edited by McGregNi: 27/05/2014 - 18:53
johnriley
Posted 27/05/2014 - 19:29 Link
It sounds like you're trying to re-invent the Zone System Nigel, in which case you'd probably be better looking it up as is to avoid confusion. Once you have the gist of that system, it can be applied in a simple way to everyday situations. These days I do it automatically without thinking too much, adjusting the centre weighted reading accordingly.
Best regards, John
McGregNi
Posted 27/05/2014 - 20:47 Link
Its definately not my invention John. The author Michael Freeman outlines it in his book 'Perfect Exposure', but I've seen reference to it as well in other respected guides. It really is adapted from the true digital scale, RGB values 0-255, as for most a 0-100 scale is easier to reckon with quickly.

I do think it could be helpful even in quickly changing light, as once you've established the relationship between your metered point and your intended tonal value, then its a quick re-adjustment up or down the scale as the light changes - here a instant visual judgement could work without any need to re-meter. So I think it is versatile enough in practice to cover many shooting situations.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Edited by McGregNi: 27/05/2014 - 20:49
Dodge69
Posted 27/05/2014 - 21:00 Link
As someone who enjoys slamming some Kodak bw400cn in the old MX once and awhile, with only gut instinct and the hilariously simplistic light meter in the viewfinder, I can only scratch my head here...

Perhaps you should move to Sony or something so you can see the 'live' exposure in the EVF Nigel, then perhaps you can go out and have a bit more fun
Pentax pour des images riches en détails!
McGregNi
Posted 27/05/2014 - 21:23 Link
Good idea ... anyone know the name of the Sony forum ?

But I'd have thought that a quick and accurate way to meter and achieve your desired exposure reliably would be even more important on film?
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Edited by McGregNi: 27/05/2014 - 21:23

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