Donít hold your breath for a Pentax mirrorless


danofmk

Link Posted 21/05/2019 - 11:35



Nothing 'up the nose' here.

Algernon

Link Posted 21/05/2019 - 13:08
danofmk wrote:



Nothing 'up the nose' here.

Ha! Ha! With a DSLR you would have spotted the tree growing out of her head

--
Half Man... Half Pentax ... Half Cucumber

Pentax K-1 + K-5 and some other stuff

Algi

MrB

Link Posted 21/05/2019 - 15:24
danofmk wrote:

We recently had a family get together. I found being able to tilt the screen and hold a small camera down at waist level got me a lot of great candid snaps I would have struggled to get on my DSLR.....
.....Some people commented they didn't realise I had even been shooting when I sent them the pictures later that day.

Stealth shooting should be possible with a Pentax KP, using live view on the tilting rear screen, the almost silent 20-40 Ltd, and the electronic shutter. That setup would not be much bigger than a comparable Fuji APS-C mirrorless kit

Philip

danofmk

Link Posted 21/05/2019 - 16:07
MrB wrote:
danofmk wrote:

We recently had a family get together. I found being able to tilt the screen and hold a small camera down at waist level got me a lot of great candid snaps I would have struggled to get on my DSLR.....
.....Some people commented they didn't realise I had even been shooting when I sent them the pictures later that day.

Stealth shooting should be possible with a Pentax KP, using live view on the tilting rear screen, the almost silent 20-40 Ltd, and the electronic shutter. That setup would not be much bigger than a comparable Fuji APS-C mirrorless kit

Philip

Great.... Except I don't have a KP, and the mirrorless kit was under 400 gbp, so a fraction of the price of that set up.

Unless they've shrunk a KP and I haven't read about it, my Sony mirrorless must be at least half the size and weight.

Anyway, the point is, why do people have to get worked up about it and argue the way they happen to prefer is better?

I like both, at different times. I'd never get rid of my DSLR, but there are times where mirrorless works for me.

Can't things just be different? Like film and digital? Why do we have to put one over the other, then try and convince other people our preference is "right" or more valid?

Genuine question, not aimed at anybody in particular

Lubbyman

Link Posted 21/05/2019 - 16:32
Back to the original question. What Ricoh/Pentax said sounds like they are positioning themselves as a high quality brand within market sectors which they believe to have a good future and in which they know/believe they have strength and reputation. They will not be working in areas which would require lots of investment, where others have a headstart or where they believe the market will weaken significantly. Sounds like a sensible business strategy to me.

Ricoh/Pentax definitely won't be doing mirrorless, so the message to people who need/want mirrorless is clear: it won't be a Pentax. At least you know for sure now.

They believe that APS-C, FF and MF each have strengths, so they will support all three, make use of technical synergies across the formats and thus offer a upgrade path based on technical capabilities. To me, that suggests the message that Pentax is aiming at people who take photography seriously rather than at casual shooters. Again, that sounds sensible to me, given the phone camera revolution and what other companies are doing.

Whether Pentax can make it work is another matter. But I'd be worried for their future if they were trying to do everything rather than focus on what they are good at. They are not, though, so they'll probably outlive me!

Steve
PS: I do use mirrorless, it's called a Q, like all cameras it's got strengths and weaknesses, so just a matter of playing to its strengths (like putting a body and couple of lenses in a pocket).

MrB

Link Posted 21/05/2019 - 19:30
danofmk wrote:

Can't things just be different? Like film and digital? Why do we have to put one over the other, then try and convince other people our preference is "right" or more valid?

Genuine question, not aimed at anybody in particular

Thank you for including that last sentence, Dan, as I'm sure you realise that my post wasn't arguing for a preference, but just pointing out that Pentax has already developed an APS-C DSLR which is quite capable for stealth photography, should anyone which to use it like that.

My history in brief is that, a few years ago, I wanted a camera with a moveable screen, so I got the Sony A6000 which I used for about a year alongside my Pentax stuff. Although it is a very good mirrorless camera, I never really enjoyed using it. Fortunately the K-70 arrived on the scene, with its articulated screen. It is a real pleasure to use, so I'm happy to stay with a Pentax DSLR and looking forward to the next APS-C model.

As they say, "To each his own".

Philip

RobL

Link Posted 21/05/2019 - 20:05
We have seen Canon and Nikon introduce new larger mounts for their mirrorless and of course starting a whole lot of new lenses to suit; this option is clearly outside Ricohís capacity on top of their other ranges. Also it occurs that it would go against the Pentax philosophy of backwards compatibility, in place it would be interesting to see some innovative developments in DSLRs like the nifty mirror movement in the K1/K1II which reduces body size.

richandfleur

Link Posted 22/05/2019 - 11:26
Mirrorless vs DSLR is a discussion on optical viewfinder vs electronic, focusing technology/approach and lens mount/depth.

All the rest is the same. Both have the same sized sensors and both have mechanical shutters.

I get Ricoh not wanting to go down the route of new development in this area, as well as the lens discussion it opens up.

Biggest threat to them all (especially in terms of new entry level customers) is cell phones. Those things have come a long way, many have 3 camera lenses now (wide, portrait and depth sensor to artificially blur the background) and many are not seeing the need for separate
Cameras now. Cellphones also allow you to edit the image and upload direct to sharing sites like Instagram.

Tyr

Link Posted 22/05/2019 - 23:23
I've been lucky enough to play with a few bits of kit that were not mine recently. These being an OM-D EM1ii and EM1X as well as a K-70.

Things that really surprised me with the K-70:

K-70 just feels so much more responsive than my K-5.
K-70 is more comfortable to hold with its deeper grip.
K-70 image quality, noise level and dynamic range are excellent even at a 1:1 comparison with the K-5.
K-70's live view with face detection and focus peeking are really useful when you just have to nail the focus perfectly.
New lenses like the 55-300 PLM just seem to focus instantly and accurately.

Have been tempted to jump ship to Olympus several times over the years. Things like focus speed, all their 'Pro' lenses being sealed. Ultra wide apertures, for light gathering not depth of field control. Focus speed and accuracy is a fair bit better than on my K-5.

A few things that have stopped me are:
Noise is better on my K-5.
Dynamic range is better on my K-5.
Colours are better on my K-5.

Additionally size isn't improved really by going mirrorless. Both systems are of similar size and overall weight for the same equivalent field of view and depth of field. I have two really good examples.
- I did a side by side with the OM-D EM1ii with 300mm f/4 vs my K-5 with 300mm f/4 & 1.4x TC. The field of view was almost identical, the bokeh and DoF was so close that I couldn't tell the difference (focus set on a target at the same distance). Both set-ups were almost identical in terms of overall dimensions and weight.
- I did a side by side with the OM-D EM1ii with 17mm f/1.2 vs my K-5 with 21mm f/3.2. The field of view was almost identical, the bokeh and DoF was so close that I couldn't tell the difference (focus set on a target at the same distance). The K-5 and 21mm were smaller and lighter. Sadly the 21mm isn't weather sealed.

I do find my eyes struggle sometimes in low light when using the viewfinder of a DSLR. It can feel very dark, especially around dawn/dusk, making composition harder. EVFs don't have that as they can just keep amplifying the signal from the sensor. I think a DSLR offers the best of both worlds. You can use live view if you want but can still save power and use the OVF.

I'll stick with a DSLR for quite some time yet. Especially if Pentax keep making them and focus on that market. Just till waiting for them to produce the camera I want...

A K-70 or K-P with GPS instead of flash and that uses the larger D-LI90 batteries.

Nice extras would be:
Redesigned DA* and Limited lenses with WR construction and either PLM, DC or ring SDM motors.

I also had a play with kit at The Photography Show. The new FF mirrorless sytems are HUGE!!! The lenses are monstrous. They are no smaller or lighter really than a modern DSLR. The APS-C mirrorless cameras are not too different from an APS-C DSLR. Finally, M43 can be tiny but if you want some DoF controll you need the more expensive bigger kit.
Regards,
Dan

https://www.flickr.com/photos/honourabletyr/

RobL

Link Posted 23/05/2019 - 08:00
Hi Dan, I tried some at the TPS as well, as you say the lenses are large and their weight is a real problem on the smaller bodies with inadequate grips because they feel so unbalanced; most of the weight is carried by your left hand supporting the lens which makes manual focus awkward.

walt

Link Posted 23/05/2019 - 10:37
Hi Dan, I've added some olympus m43 bodies and lenses and was waiting for the olympus 300 F4 to be released and then.... it was heavier than the DA*300 F4, a lot more expensive and a bit bigger, all for a camera that has a smaller sensor than the APS-C pentax. It seems that this was a choice olympus took, not a necessity. If Pentax can make a DA*300 F4 that covers full frame, then olympus should be able to match that if not improve. Then the EM1 mk ii is more expensive than the Pentax APS-C cameras, again a choice made by olympus. If mirrorless manufacturer keep appealing to the large and expensive lens crowd then I'll stay a happy Pentax APS-C user with my existing lenses on the KP or next flagship. However Pentax also seems to have gone this way with newer lenses and the K1, so I don't hold out much hope for people like me who are looking for improved performance in smaller packages.
And of course it comes back to the fact that Pentax needs to grow it's new users, because as much as I'd like to be around for a very long time I don't think I'll be here forever....
Walt
Flickr
Picasa

richandfleur

Link Posted 23/05/2019 - 11:32
RobL wrote:
Hi Dan, I tried some at the TPS as well, as you say the lenses are large and their weight is a real problem on the smaller bodies with inadequate grips because they feel so unbalanced; most of the weight is carried by your left hand supporting the lens which makes manual focus awkward.

I think mirrorless started off down the smaller/lighter angle. Without the need for the mirror box, yeah they can be made a bit smaller but is that really a good idea ergonomics wise? That no grip form factor seemed to work for the original K-1000 type cameras.

Nowadays I see more mirrorless cameras are coming out with larger grip designs. Size and weight compared to DSLRs is less of a selling point. Itís still there but the tracking and eye AF, fine manual focus aides and seeing exposure simulated right in the viewfinder are all the current mirrorless strengths.

Kinda feels like the automatic vs manual gearbox concept, which is a factor/component for sure, but not the only reason most would buy one car over another.
Last Edited by richandfleur on 23/05/2019 - 11:32

Tyr

Link Posted 23/05/2019 - 21:38
richandfleur wrote:
[quote:3496ace15f="RobL"]Kinda feels like the automatic vs manual gearbox concept, which is a factor/component for sure, but not the only reason most would buy one car over another.

Give me the manual any day of the week

Seems a lot of people are having very similar sentiments about size, weight and ergonomics.

M43 can be made small. Just look at some of the really tiny bodies with the f/1.8 lenses (f/3.5 eFF equivalent). And those bodies and lenses are not crazy expensive. The f/1.2 lenses (f/2.4 FF equivalent) as amazingly well made as they are are just too big.

Something strange that I thought might make Pentax stand out. A 1.4x crop sensor instead of 1.5x. Still small enough for SR with the APS-C lens line-up but gives an exact 1-stop difference from FF. Bit of extra light gathering area. Almost like a permanent 1.4x teleconverter on a FF body. I doubt it'll ever happen but it is an idea I like.
Regards,
Dan

https://www.flickr.com/photos/honourabletyr/

johnha

Link Posted 23/05/2019 - 23:54
I don't understand why there's so much discussion about Pentax and 'mirrorless' (horrible term as loads of cameras don't have mirrors). Pentax may not make a mirrorless interchangeable lens system (apart from the Q) in the same way very few make medium format systems. I'd much rather have the option of a medium format option than a 'me too' mirrorless system.

If Pentax did make a mirrorless system, there'd be complaints whether they went for an FF or APS-C option. The Nikon S7 (the flagship one) received an under whelming review in AP - a D810 equivalent that was less responsive with slower AF. Canon's doesn't have IBIS (keeps there IS lens sales up) and Sony couldn't even build a lens mount that was light tight.

If you want mirrorless go out and buy one, take your pick whether it's size, weight, AF, EVF or video. Personally I prefer medium format (film & digital) and would much rather cart round my P6x7 or 645D than anything else (both get more use than my K-5 or K-1). Life's to short to wait for something that might not appear or might not meet your expectations when it finally does.
PPG Flickr

Jonathan-Mac

Link Posted 24/05/2019 - 10:40
The smaller the camera, the less comfortable it is to use with big lenses, but they work superbly with smaller lenses. For bigger glass a well designed grip attachment is in order, but I'm not sure many offer this option.

Mirrorless needn't be "me too" - none of the existing FF options is perfect (or even close), so there's still opportunity to design one that works as well as a good DSLR. The smaller formats - m4/3, Fujifilm (not Sony though) - are better thought out systems so I think there's less scope for success in a new smaller-than-FF mirrorless system. Neither is for Pentax though as they'd probably take about 20 years to complete a half decent lens lineup.
Pentax hybrid user - Digital K3 & K200D, film 645 and 35mm SLR and Pentax (&other) lenses adapted to Fuji X digital
Fan of DA limited and old manual lenses
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