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CCD vs CMOS

Simonmac
Posted 05/10/2013 - 23:14 Link
I no longer have the K100d Super so I am sadly unable to make a direct comparison with my Kr.
There are so many variables with outdoor exposures so I wonder if anyone has had the experience, or the present capability, to compare under controlled studio lighting?
Clearly where lighting conditions are more challenging the current CMOS censors have a clear advantage.

Cheers

Mac
macmccreery.com
www.flickr.com/photos/simac/
www.500px.com/simac
Edited by Simonmac: 05/10/2013 - 23:14
Pentaxophile
Posted 06/10/2013 - 09:43 - Helpful Comment Link
You can easily compare using the comparometer (TM) over at imaging resource. By default it compares current cameras but you can change it to include old cameras too.
[link=https://500px.com/will_brealey/[/link]
Mongoose
Posted 06/10/2013 - 12:04 Link
Smeggypants wrote:
This may turn into another K-5II versus K-5IIs thread


Comment Image

do you think we could formulate a version of Godwins law for camera forums, something along the lines of

"The person who first mentions the word Moire has lost the argument"?
you don't have to be mad to post here



but it does help
Smeggypants
Posted 06/10/2013 - 16:09 Link
Pentaxophile wrote:
You can easily compare using the comparometer (TM) over at imaging resource. By default it compares current cameras but you can change it to include old cameras too.

No it is not enough!!

You actually have to own both cameras before you're allowed a valid opinion on the comparison images from Imaging Resource™ !!!


Comment Image
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
Pentaxophile
Posted 06/10/2013 - 16:36 Link
Well... I have owned an K10D and then a K30 in succession. CCD to CMOS. At the time I switched I felt that the CMOS images were different, but in truth, looking at them now, I can barely tell any difference (not pixel peeping, low ISO, little exposure recovery etc).

The imaging resource images just seem to confirm that, as expected, in the studio samples the higher resolution CMOS images are more detailed and there's very little else between them IMHO!

I can report that the K30 is miles better at high ISO than the K10D, the metering is better, the AF is better, there is less noise in exposure-corrected images, images are sharper etc etc. Any longing for the elusive 'aroma of CCD' pretty soon dissipated once I got using the camera properly!
[link=https://500px.com/will_brealey/[/link]
Smeggypants
Posted 06/10/2013 - 17:32 Link
Pentaxophile wrote:
Well... I have owned an K10D and then a K30 in succession. CCD to CMOS. At the time I switched I felt that the CMOS images were different, but in truth, looking at them now, I can barely tell any difference (not pixel peeping, low ISO, little exposure recovery etc).

The imaging resource images just seem to confirm that, as expected, in the studio samples the higher resolution CMOS images are more detailed and there's very little else between them IMHO!

I can report that the K30 is miles better at high ISO than the K10D, the metering is better, the AF is better, there is less noise in exposure-corrected images, images are sharper etc etc. Any longing for the elusive 'aroma of CCD' pretty soon dissipated once I got using the camera properly!

I also owned a K10D and K20D before swapping them for 2 K-5s

I was of course being sarcastic in my previous post. When pointing out that such claimed differences are indeed tiny and might not make any difference in practise an often used last ditch retort is ther claim that the claim is invalid unless you've actually owned/used the camera physically.
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
johnriley
Posted 06/10/2013 - 17:55 Link
You've stated your own opinion ad nauseam Mr S, but there's no need to try to ridicule others' opinions. In the wider world of photography you're pretty much in a minority on that particular issue.
Best regards, John
McGregNi
Posted 06/10/2013 - 19:03 Link
Well, ok, the point has been made many times, but it is a fact, despite all that majority opinion.

When I compared those k5ii images, not one comment on pages and pages over 2 forums ever questioned anything I said on the basis of me not using the cameras themselves.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Smeggypants
Posted 06/10/2013 - 20:08 Link
johnriley wrote:
You've stated your own opinion ad nauseam Mr S, but there's no need to try to ridicule others' opinions.

A claim that you need to own a camera to judge images taken by it ridicules itself.

Quote:
In the wider world of photography you're pretty much in a minority on that particular issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
Edited by Smeggypants: 06/10/2013 - 20:08
Smeggypants
Posted 06/10/2013 - 20:10 Link
McGregNi wrote:
Well, ok, the point has been made many times, but it is a fact, despite all that majority opinion.

When I compared those k5ii images, not one comment on pages and pages over 2 forums ever questioned anything I said on the basis of me not using the cameras themselves.

.. and yet my comments on the KII/KIIs pictures on imaging resource and DPReview were lambasted becuase I didn't own the cameras.

As the Americans say .... Go figure
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
Pentaxophile
Posted 06/10/2013 - 20:21 Link
McGregNi wrote:
not one comment on pages and pages over 2 forums ever questioned anything I said on the basis of me not using the cameras themselves.

Sometimes you're actually better placed if you don't own either camera... if you don't have a horse in the race so to speak ;P
[link=https://500px.com/will_brealey/[/link]
McGregNi
Posted 06/10/2013 - 20:34 Link
So long as you limit it to only what can actually be analyzed and quantified from the images themselves, then in theory it shouldn't matter - but if you mean I had no personal agenda then I guess that does remove some targets for criticism. I never had any intention of getting either of the k5ii models, and I think that was generally understood.
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Smeggypants
Posted 06/10/2013 - 20:38 Link
McGregNi wrote:
So long as you limit it to only what can actually be analyzed and quantified from the images themselves, then in theory it shouldn't matter - but if you mean I had no personal agenda then I guess that does remove some targets for criticism. I never had any intention of getting either of the k5ii models, and I think that was generally understood.

I had no personal agenda either. My only comments were on based upon the images themselves.

And yes it shouldn't matter.
[i]Bodies: 1x K-5IIs, 2x K-5, Sony TX-5, Nokia 808
Lenses: Pentax DA 10-17mm ED(IF) Fish Eye, Pentax DA 14mm f/2.8, Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8, Pentax-A 28mm f/2.8, Sigma 30mm F1.4 EX DC, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.2, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-FA 50mm f/1.4, Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7, Pentax DA* 50-135mm f/2.8, Sigma 135-400mm APO DG, and more ..
Flash: AF-540FGZ, Vivitar 283
Pentaxophile
Posted 06/10/2013 - 20:56 Link
We are human though. It's hard to be entirely objective. I read a lot of statements about CCD having a nicer look than CMOS. I remember comparing CCD images to CMOS when I had a K200D, and wanted to find reasons to upgrade, and coming to different conclusions. In the end I think yeah, there are subtle differences (same goes for AA vs non-AA filter), but it makes little difference when you are looking at images as a whole, rather than pixel peeping them. The other variables that go into taking a photo blow these differences out of the water!

The difference between the CCD sensors (and the old generation CMOS from Samsung) are NOT trivial though, at higher ISO. So CCD-nostalgics ought to pause before they throw the baby out with the bath water.
[link=https://500px.com/will_brealey/[/link]
McGregNi
Posted 06/10/2013 - 21:12 Link
That's why I thought it would be useful to break it down a bit technically, to isolate what actually produces those particular special qualities that are valued. If they could be reproduced with current technologies then people could have their bath and keep the baby
My Guides to the Pentax Digital Camera Flash Lighting System : Download here from the PentaxForums Homepage Article .... link
Pentax K7 with BG-4 Grip / Samyang 14mm f2.8 ED AS IF UMC / DA18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL WR / SMC A28mm f2.8 / D FA 28-105mm / SMC F35-70 f3.5-4.5 / SMC A50mm f1.7 / Tamron AF70-300mm f4-5.6 Di LD macro / SMC M75-150mm f4.0 / Tamron Adaptall (CT-135) 135mm f2.8 / Asahi Takumar-A 2X tele-converter / Pentax AF-540FGZ (I & II) Flashes / Cactus RF60/X Flashes & V6/V6II Transceiver
Edited by McGregNi: 06/10/2013 - 21:13

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