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Best focal length for portrait

Anvh
Posted 25/05/2010 - 15:38 Link
I always thought that the longer the lens the better but now I've heard that because of the tele-effect that isn't true because it makes the faces flat. I wanted to know more about this but the discussion became heated and no one wants to explain it anymore (not my fault this time).

I'm wandering what you've to say what focal length is the best for portrait and why?

Hopefully someone here can also explain the tele-effect a bit more and why that's bad
Stefan
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K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
johnriley
Posted 25/05/2010 - 15:46 Link
The point is that to get a close portrait you need to move close, so with a wide angle lens the nose looks too big compared to the ears.

A standard lens will do, but the most natural portrait (if that is what you want) will be obtained with a short telephoto lens.

In 35mm terms the 85mm is the classic lens, 100mm is fine and 135mm just a bit too long.

In terms of digital (APS-C) then 60mm would be about right, or slightly longer. In fact the 18-55mm zoom is just fine at the long end!
Best regards, John
Anvh
Posted 25/05/2010 - 16:03 Link
Thank you John now only a bit deeper into the matter.

I mean if you want a natural distortion of the face you would want a lens that does not "magnify" I thought 50mm was that lens but that it simply looked better with a longer lens, there are even pro's that use 600mm lenses and use a megaphone to communicate. That surely isn't my style but they must be using those focal length for a reason.

I even have a portrait book that suggest using a 200mm lens.
Stefan
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K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
robbie_d
Posted 25/05/2010 - 16:22 Link
I read an article a while ago that swore by the Pentax 50mm macro, although common wisdom would regard it as slightly too short.
If you can't say something nice about Pentax, you won't say anything at all.

Apparently.
johnriley
Posted 25/05/2010 - 16:25 Link
There is a psychological aspect to this as well. If you used a wide angle lens, you would be very close and the portrait would not only be distorted but also very intrusive. It would violate "personal space" and be uncomfortable.

A very long lens reduces communication and interaction with the model and becomes voyeuristic and detached, the person is diminished as an individual.

It all depends on what effect you want, and if portraits with a fish-eye lens are done in the right way then no doubt it would be possible to take stunning portraits. You would have to be very skilled to pull that one off though.
Best regards, John
Aero
Posted 25/05/2010 - 17:13 Link
Focal length is a bit of a red herring because it has nothing to do with perspective.

My understanding is that the appearance of the subject is determined by the distance between that subject and the observer, or camera. It just happens that an 85 or 100mm lens on a 35mm camera (and the equivalent FOV on digital) allows you to fill frame at what most people would regard as the best distance to show the subject accurately/favourably.

Using a wider angle means you would have to stand closer (giving your sitter a big nose, because that's how the eye would perceive it at that distance) or, in the case of a telephoto, you'd have to stand farther away to include all of your subject, again changing the perspective. The trick is to decide on the camera/subject distance you need to produce the effect you're after and then pick a suitable lens to frame your subject the way you want.

John has covered the most useful focal lengths.

Al
stevejcoe
Posted 25/05/2010 - 18:55 Link
Stefan, I agree with John and Al, I would also refer you to Piotr Haskiewicz's portfolio (Forum username Hasky), who has produced some magical portrait images with the FA 77Ltd.


Regards - Steve
Posted 25/05/2010 - 19:05 Link
I think John has got it about right. The 85mm is probably the most useful portrait lens, many Pro's swear by that length. However, I have managed to get some great images from my, 50mm, 55mm, 90mm Macro, 105mm Macro and my fave portrait lens, the mighty 50-135mm. However I feel that 135mm is still a great length especially for just face shots. Now I know it is EFOV of 202mm, it is still however a 135mm lens. I've not heard that much about the "tele-effect", but although it is a short tele it is still very useful, and probably still short enough not to have that flattening effect.
An example is here, which was at 135mm on my K20D.
It helps having light to suit, maybe to reduce the flatness.

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Some Cameras
Edited by Offertonhatter: 25/05/2010 - 19:06
Anvh
Posted 25/05/2010 - 19:21 Link
stevejcoe wrote:
Stefan, I agree with John and Al, I would also refer you to Piotr Haskiewicz's portfolio (Forum username Hasky), who has produced some magical portrait images with the FA 77Ltd.

Don't get me wrong I agree fully on that the "golden range" is around 85mm for 135format and that would be 57mm for APS-C so around that would be perfect but does that mean 135mm on APS-C (200mm EFOV) is too long? I mean is there something as too long for image quality, would the face get too flat if you use such focal lengths?
I agree fully that for communication you can't be too far and for "personal space" you can't be too close.

Offertonhatter wrote:
I think John has got it about right. The 85mm is probably the most useful portrait lens, many Pro's swear by that length. However, I have managed to get some great images from my, 50mm, 55mm, 90mm Macro, 105mm Macro and my fave portrait lens, the mighty 50-135mm. However I feel that 135mm is still a great length especially for just face shots. Now I know it is EFOV of 202mm, it is still however a 135mm lens. I've not heard that much about the "tele-effect", but although it is a short tele it is still very useful, and probably still short enough not to have that flattening effect.
An example is here, which was at 135mm on my K20D.
It helps having light to suit, maybe to reduce the flatness.

Yes that's precisely what I mean and I don't see it either and I wonder if you would ever see it.
The topic went about the DA*50-135 and it was said that 100-135 isn't that "usefull" of that lens for portrait because of the tele-effect.
Since he said that more strongly then it was meant the discusion became heated and so the matter was not really discuss but things have cooled down now so maybe it might be discuss a bit.
Stefan
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K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
Edited by Anvh: 25/05/2010 - 19:23
dougf8
Posted 25/05/2010 - 19:36 Link
With a longer lens you stand further away so the light rays are nearing parallel as they enter the lens. Wide angle accentuates parts of the subject closer to the lens. Chin 30cm away hair 45cm , that's 50% more distance and a reduction in relative size captured. The light is coming in from a wider arc.

I'm guessing with a long/tele lens you end up with the whole face and body and a lot more in the same plane/ in focus. With a more modest lens you can isolate the sitter a bit more. In a studio you can make the environment boring and isolate the subject more.

The point about needing some interaction with the subject is key.

Having seen a whole load of Irving Penn's recently he varies from distant full body portraits (take your pic) to close up crops (Picasso, Capote). His portraits look pretty flat and the close ups not distorted. They are masterful.

Here's a 58mm (87mm FF) from the back of a car. And through the door of a restaurant.
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Looking at your lenses you have all the portrait lengths covered in quality. Stick the 50-135 on the front and get a willing helper to experiment.
Lurking is shirking.!
Mannesty
Posted 25/05/2010 - 19:39 Link
To answer your question simply, the DA* 55mm SDM lens has roughly the same field of view on a Pentax DSLR to the de facto standard 85mm focal length for portraits.

The softness preferred in portraits can be achieved easily in post processing.

Just buy one, you know it makes sense.
Peter E Smith - flickr Photostream
Anvh
Posted 25/05/2010 - 19:59 Link
dougf8 wrote:
Looking at your lenses you have all the portrait lengths covered in quality. Stick the 50-135 on the front and get a willing helper to experiment.

Thank you Doug for your contribution and the lovely photos.
I agree fully what you said there and the longer focal lengths is indeed handy to isolate the model more, didn't really thought about that one.

Mannesty wrote:
To answer your question simply, the DA* 55mm SDM lens has roughly the same field of view on a Pentax DSLR to the de facto standard 85mm focal length for portraits.

The softness preferred in portraits can be achieved easily in post processing.

Just buy one, you know it makes sense.

Peter you're right but I already have the DA*50-135 and I like that I can zoom and I think f/2.8 is wide enough so I'm not looking for a lens
I just find it strange that 135mm is considered too long for portrait, that's something I can't really bend my head around.
Stefan
Comment Image

K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ
johnriley
Posted 25/05/2010 - 20:49 Link
Quote:
I just find it strange that 135mm is considered too long for portrait, that's something I can't really bend my head around.

Well it's your photography, so the key question is do you think it's too long for portraits?

If not, shoot away!
Best regards, John
mikew
Posted 25/05/2010 - 21:03 Link
Stefan bear in mind that apart from the 18mm of your kit lens you don't have a wide angle lens so that you seem to have a natural preference for longer lenses and the implied perspective. My own preference is for wider and if I did portraits I suspect I'd use 50 or 35 on the K20 or wider with care about noses etc.
---------------------------------------------------

You can see some of my shots at my Flickr account.
Anvh
Posted 25/05/2010 - 21:22 Link
So if I understand it correctly there is no real technical reason why not to shoot with 135mm but more a preference?
Stefan
Comment Image

K10D, K5
DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, D-FA 100 Macro, DA 40 Ltd, DA 18-55
AF-540FGZ

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